5 ms·

Global warming is a global problem. While carbon tax would be levied locally, creating incentives to just shift production to low or no tax locations. Just as

Global warming is a global problem. While carbon tax would be levied locally, creating incentives to just shift production to low or no tax locations. Just as harmonisation over Cororate Tax is finally emerging, similar cross-border agreements should be needed for a Carbon Tax.

LeanderK 5y ago
it's complicated, but could tariffs help?
- lovemenot 5y ago
  Tariffs might help in one respect. But they lack the market-driven simplicity and transparency which were the principal benefits of the carbon tax mentioned in the article.
nabla9 5y ago
EU is making carbon tariffs to prevent exporting emissions to avoid paying for carbon emissions outside EU Emissions Trading System. Carbon tariffs are essential feature of any functioning system. Either countries enter agreement where they harmonize their carbon trade/tariff or there will be tariff.
wcoenen 5y ago
Which is why mechanisms like carbon tariffs on imports are being designed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_Border_Adjustment_Mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_Border_Adjustment_Mecha...
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  That seems like it could become very messy and open to fraud. The nice thing about carbon tariffs within borders is they would be trivial to implement because there are relatively few targets (oil wells, coal mines, etc).
  - rubinelli 5y ago
    Most messy problems can't be solved by neat solutions. Without tariffs, countries will be incentivized to use lax emission control as a competitive advantage.
  - timbit42 5y ago
    Yeah, you're right. We should just give up.
- xyzzy123 5y ago
  Do you think the natural game theoretic result might be "carbon havens"? Areas that have the worst carbon enforcement / corruption (so issuing certificates to avoid tariffs etc without real action) would be more competitive than areas with effective enforcement so they will attract the most manufacturing. I don't think importing from countries without a carbon price will be a problem (border taxes seem like they can work). I suspect the problem will be that for countries that DO set a carbon price it is in everyone's interest within that country that the system not actually be effective.
  - pydry 5y ago
    If high levels of fraud are detected other countries can just slap high "emergency" tarriffs until the country fixes the problem. This would most certainly disincentivize lax enforcement. The problem has always been lack of a will, not a way.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - lovemenot 5y ago
    Perhaps this can work as strategic arms limitation treaties: trust but verify. Satellite monitoring is almost at the point where an individual country may be held accountable for emissions from their territory.
- bronzeage 5y ago
  Even tariffs won't be enough. Iran is the 8th carbon emitter in the world despite heavy sanctions and tariffs and their entire oil export are under heavy sanctions, they export only a small fraction of what they can. China will never cooperate, and they are 29% of the worlds emissions. We need to realize there are simply more evil countries that don't care and will never care and prepare for the world after the warming. "Luckily" the warming will at least make all those Arabic countries exporting oil uninhabitable so we've got a chance they'll eventually change.
gefhfff 5y ago
As a country you also can enforce restrictions/taxes onto the whole supply chain, as a initial measure (can't be done by weak countries though). Of course, mid term everyone should push for global carbon pricing models Germany was the only country that seems to have understood this, given they were the only ones that advocated for it at COP.
- dougweltman 5y ago
  > As a country you also can enforce restrictions/taxes onto the whole supply chain, as a initial measure… Isn’t this an extremely hard problem, possibly unworkable, when trade is in assembled goods with complex, global supply chains?
  - gefhfff 5y ago
    Should be doable, see recent supply chain law of Germany regarding human rights
- p_l 5y ago
  There's a problem between non-tariff measures and tariffs, with carbon taxing being too obviously a tariff measure. And you can't just throw in a tariff thanks to WTO rules, especially if it wouldn't apply to countries that do collect carbon tax - WTO requires that tariffs are applied the same to all countries except through certain bilateral trade treaties. Which is workable, but makes for considerable stumbling block in "quick apply" of carbon tax

LeanderK 5y ago

it's complicated, but could tariffs help?

lovemenot 5y ago
Tariffs might help in one respect. But they lack the market-driven simplicity and transparency which were the principal benefits of the carbon tax mentioned in the article.

nabla9 5y ago

EU is making carbon tariffs to prevent exporting emissions to avoid paying for carbon emissions outside EU Emissions Trading System. Carbon tariffs are essential feature of any functioning system. Either countries enter agreement where they harmonize their carbon trade/tariff or there will be tariff.

wcoenen 5y ago

Which is why mechanisms like carbon tariffs on imports are being designed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_Border_Adjustment_Mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_Border_Adjustment_Mecha...

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
That seems like it could become very messy and open to fraud. The nice thing about carbon tariffs within borders is they would be trivial to implement because there are relatively few targets (oil wells, coal mines, etc).
- rubinelli 5y ago
  Most messy problems can't be solved by neat solutions. Without tariffs, countries will be incentivized to use lax emission control as a competitive advantage.
- timbit42 5y ago
  Yeah, you're right. We should just give up.
xyzzy123 5y ago
Do you think the natural game theoretic result might be "carbon havens"? Areas that have the worst carbon enforcement / corruption (so issuing certificates to avoid tariffs etc without real action) would be more competitive than areas with effective enforcement so they will attract the most manufacturing. I don't think importing from countries without a carbon price will be a problem (border taxes seem like they can work). I suspect the problem will be that for countries that DO set a carbon price it is in everyone's interest within that country that the system not actually be effective.
- pydry 5y ago
  If high levels of fraud are detected other countries can just slap high "emergency" tarriffs until the country fixes the problem. This would most certainly disincentivize lax enforcement. The problem has always been lack of a will, not a way.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- lovemenot 5y ago
  Perhaps this can work as strategic arms limitation treaties: trust but verify. Satellite monitoring is almost at the point where an individual country may be held accountable for emissions from their territory.
bronzeage 5y ago
Even tariffs won't be enough. Iran is the 8th carbon emitter in the world despite heavy sanctions and tariffs and their entire oil export are under heavy sanctions, they export only a small fraction of what they can. China will never cooperate, and they are 29% of the worlds emissions. We need to realize there are simply more evil countries that don't care and will never care and prepare for the world after the warming. "Luckily" the warming will at least make all those Arabic countries exporting oil uninhabitable so we've got a chance they'll eventually change.

gefhfff 5y ago

As a country you also can enforce restrictions/taxes onto the whole supply chain, as a initial measure (can't be done by weak countries though). Of course, mid term everyone should push for global carbon pricing models Germany was the only country that seems to have understood this, given they were the only ones that advocated for it at COP.

dougweltman 5y ago
> As a country you also can enforce restrictions/taxes onto the whole supply chain, as a initial measure… Isn’t this an extremely hard problem, possibly unworkable, when trade is in assembled goods with complex, global supply chains?
- gefhfff 5y ago
  Should be doable, see recent supply chain law of Germany regarding human rights
p_l 5y ago
There's a problem between non-tariff measures and tariffs, with carbon taxing being too obviously a tariff measure. And you can't just throw in a tariff thanks to WTO rules, especially if it wouldn't apply to countries that do collect carbon tax - WTO requires that tariffs are applied the same to all countries except through certain bilateral trade treaties. Which is workable, but makes for considerable stumbling block in "quick apply" of carbon tax