4 ms·

Natural immunity (including from variolation and small doses of the virus that everyone is constantly being exposed to — acting as a constant low level booster)

by EGreg 5y ago

Natural immunity (including from variolation and small doses of the virus that everyone is constantly being exposed to — acting as a constant low level booster) is formed in response to MANY proteins on the virus, and not just the spike protein. Most vaccines based on an inactivated virus throughout history have stimulated such a response. By contrast, the mRNA vaccines induce a far more limited range of responses — only to a specific protein. So the surface area for the virus needs to mutate escape the immune response is far smaller than from natural immunity or “inactivated virus” vaccines such as the ones which eradicated Smallpox, or Salk’s Polivo vaccine. Why doesn’t this article or many others delve into a distinction between natural immunity / inactivated virus (J&J) immunity and mRNA vaccine induced immunity? It seems like all the reporting is rigged, with almost everyone including scientific journals like Nature seemingly staying away from criticizingmRNA vaccines, and ready to carry water for them even in the absence of evidence in their favor. With the LARGEST studies out of Israel and UK showing thatnatural immunity is far more robust while vaccine immunity wanes and is more limited against mutations, most articles IGNORE this in their reporting and often even claim the opposite — that you should get vaccined even if you have been immune for a year. Homeless people and those constantly exposed to low levels of viruses have more robust immune systems than those who were isolated from everything.

jsnell 5y ago
> inactivated virus (J&J) The J&J vaccine wasn't an inactivated Covid virus. Instead it used an adenovirus vector in combination with the Covid spike protein.
somewhereoutth 5y ago
J&J (and AZ) is a vectored vaccine, but also delivering the spike protein. Spike was chosen because it is crucial to the entry of the virus to the cell, and so should be relatively well conserved. Certainly seems to be the case with Delta - but apparently not this new variant. My understanding is that disease induced immunity can be a bit patchy - if your body develops antibodies to a conserved region, or a wide range, then fine. If to a region that is presented only on the particular virus that infected you, then you may still be vulnerable to further infections. It has been found that vaccination after infection gives perhaps the best immunity - as if the vaccine focuses the previously too broad immune response somehow.
- EGreg 5y ago
  The word “perhaps” is perhaps wrong The largest studies have shown the opposite — natural immunity is far more robust and long-lasting (but perhaps more variable in the population — which is why they want everyone to be vaccinated, even if they just recovered from a severe case of the virus last week - it’s ridiculous).
  - sammalloy 5y ago
    That’s a GOP talking point, not science. The science says the opposite: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/23/should-you-get-vaccinated-if-you-had-covid-natural-immunity-explained.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/23/should-you-get-vaccinated-if... > And even if you have lots of natural immunity, getting vaccinated significantly boosts your chances of staying healthy, according to data published last month by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The agency studied more than 7,000 people, and found that unvaccinated people who’d recovered from Covid were five times as likely to catch it again, compared to people who got two doses of an mRNA vaccine from Pfizer or Moderna. […] > Combining vaccination with natural immunity gives you a “hybrid immunity,” which provides even more protection than vaccination alone — sending your antibody levels to “astronomical levels that outpace what you get from two doses of vaccine alone,” Rishi Goel, an immunologist at the University of Pennsylvania, told Nature last month.
    - EGreg 5y ago
      Seems a lot of science around the world is controlled by the US GOP eh https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-im... https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on... https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/natural-immunity-after-covid-19-found-durable-and-robust https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/natural-immunity-after... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/10/18/prior-covid-infection-is-as-effective-at-preventing-the-virus-as-vaccination-uk-study-suggests/amp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/10/18/prior-c... This is concluded in the most prestigious scientific journals including: Nature Cell Science Scientific American and preprints on Medrhiv When the LARGEST studies in Israel and UK bear this out — so what if the outcomes of the largest studies are a talking point for someone?
erhk 5y ago
Natural immunity isnt viable for the people likely to perish if they are infected. Yes you should get vaccinated even if you tested positive because false positive tests can occur. There is no verifiable record of anyone having been sick with covid in the same way that there is for vaccination. "Immune system robustness" is not something quantifiable or comparable in human populations to my knowledge. We can identify immune system weaknesses or compromise but I do not know of a metric to rank individuals relative to each other.
- EGreg 5y ago
  I thought it would be clear — I am talking about the push for people who already got immunity to the virus from beating a serious case, to get vaccinated. While there are still tons of people who need the vaccine, they are pushing everyone indiscriminately in many cities like NYC and not allowing people into establishments unless they had been vaccinated. But in Austria they are looking to simply force everyone to get it.

by EGreg 5y ago

jsnell 5y ago

> inactivated virus (J&J) The J&J vaccine wasn't an inactivated Covid virus. Instead it used an adenovirus vector in combination with the Covid spike protein.

somewhereoutth 5y ago

J&J (and AZ) is a vectored vaccine, but also delivering the spike protein. Spike was chosen because it is crucial to the entry of the virus to the cell, and so should be relatively well conserved. Certainly seems to be the case with Delta - but apparently not this new variant. My understanding is that disease induced immunity can be a bit patchy - if your body develops antibodies to a conserved region, or a wide range, then fine. If to a region that is presented only on the particular virus that infected you, then you may still be vulnerable to further infections. It has been found that vaccination after infection gives perhaps the best immunity - as if the vaccine focuses the previously too broad immune response somehow.

EGreg 5y ago
The word “perhaps” is perhaps wrong The largest studies have shown the opposite — natural immunity is far more robust and long-lasting (but perhaps more variable in the population — which is why they want everyone to be vaccinated, even if they just recovered from a severe case of the virus last week - it’s ridiculous).
- sammalloy 5y ago
  That’s a GOP talking point, not science. The science says the opposite: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/23/should-you-get-vaccinated-if-you-had-covid-natural-immunity-explained.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/23/should-you-get-vaccinated-if... > And even if you have lots of natural immunity, getting vaccinated significantly boosts your chances of staying healthy, according to data published last month by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The agency studied more than 7,000 people, and found that unvaccinated people who’d recovered from Covid were five times as likely to catch it again, compared to people who got two doses of an mRNA vaccine from Pfizer or Moderna. […] > Combining vaccination with natural immunity gives you a “hybrid immunity,” which provides even more protection than vaccination alone — sending your antibody levels to “astronomical levels that outpace what you get from two doses of vaccine alone,” Rishi Goel, an immunologist at the University of Pennsylvania, told Nature last month.
  - EGreg 5y ago
    Seems a lot of science around the world is controlled by the US GOP eh https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-im... https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on... https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/natural-immunity-after-covid-19-found-durable-and-robust https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/natural-immunity-after... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/10/18/prior-covid-infection-is-as-effective-at-preventing-the-virus-as-vaccination-uk-study-suggests/amp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/10/18/prior-c... This is concluded in the most prestigious scientific journals including: Nature Cell Science Scientific American and preprints on Medrhiv When the LARGEST studies in Israel and UK bear this out — so what if the outcomes of the largest studies are a talking point for someone?

erhk 5y ago

Natural immunity isnt viable for the people likely to perish if they are infected. Yes you should get vaccinated even if you tested positive because false positive tests can occur. There is no verifiable record of anyone having been sick with covid in the same way that there is for vaccination. "Immune system robustness" is not something quantifiable or comparable in human populations to my knowledge. We can identify immune system weaknesses or compromise but I do not know of a metric to rank individuals relative to each other.

EGreg 5y ago
I thought it would be clear — I am talking about the push for people who already got immunity to the virus from beating a serious case, to get vaccinated. While there are still tons of people who need the vaccine, they are pushing everyone indiscriminately in many cities like NYC and not allowing people into establishments unless they had been vaccinated. But in Austria they are looking to simply force everyone to get it.