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> Fan Bingbing is a good case. Jack Ma is another case. In all these cases, the person in question is not in danger in the sense of being tortured in a prison.

> Fan Bingbing is a good case. Jack Ma is another case. In all these cases, the person in question is not in danger in the sense of being tortured in a prison. It's taking in for questioning with a gag order (and depending on the severity of the case, a house arrest) until it's over Being put under house arrest and prevented from having contact with the outside world by the government, without being charged with a crime is a pretty big abuse power. Imagine if Trump just put one of his critics under house arrest and prevented contact with the outside for several months. This would be an outrageous thing to do, and there'd probably have been riots outside the White House. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and I believe that you earnestly feel this is an okay thing for the CCP to do. But that's not swaying my skepticism and distrust of the Chinese government. The fact that it's successfully normalized this level of authoritarianism among mainland Chinese to such an extent that they earnestly see it as normal is precisely why most Westerners are so distrustful of the Chinese government.

sudosysgen 5y ago
You can be put into regular arrest without being charged for a crime for weeks in almost every country on earth and there is no obligation in most country to allow for more than one or two monitored calls that can be interrupted at any moment for any reason. As far as I know Jack Ma never criticized Xi. He criticized (international) banking regulations that were ratified in 2009 in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis and that he was not in compliance of. Legally in the United States that could very well put you in prison for fraud and you are not guaranteed the right to make a phone call or see family federally, though some states guarantee phone calls to some people on the day of arrest. Then the prosecutors can seal the indictment and you can be held for a year without anyone except your immediate family and attorney (if you can afford one) knowing. And then the prosecutors can drop chargers a few months later. What happened to Jack Ma could have happened in the US because he was did something (fraud) that is a federal crime in the US. Thankfully it doesn't happen often. You also don't know that he wasn't charged. He recorded himself giving probable cause for a crime. It was really stupid of him.
burntbridge 5y ago
But why should we as Westerners actually care? The majority of people in China are happy with their Government.
- post_from_work 5y ago
  >>>But why should we as Westerners actually care? Because the CCP has built a blue-water Navy, which it continues to expand, with the stated goal of dethroning the US as the global hegemon? https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/china-army-navy/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/china-ar... https://www.amazon.com/Unrestricted-Warfare-Chinas-Destroy-America/dp/1626543054 https://www.amazon.com/Unrestricted-Warfare-Chinas-Destroy-A... https://sg.news.yahoo.com/china-seeks-become-worlds-next-025553555.html https://sg.news.yahoo.com/china-seeks-become-worlds-next-025... Because the CCP conducts influence operations globally? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49511231 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49511231 https://uscnpm.org/2021/09/14/prc-overseas-influence-disaggregating-the-risks/ https://uscnpm.org/2021/09/14/prc-overseas-influence-disaggr...
  - FooBarWidget 5y ago
    Influence operations... such as this? https://twitter.com/manyapan/status/1454346638596743173 https://twitter.com/manyapan/status/1454346638596743173 This is the typical level of Chinese influence operation. I really don't know why you're worried about it.
    - post_from_work 5y ago
      No, these are the typical levels of Chinese influence operations: https://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/chinese_malign_influence_report.pdf https://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/chinese_malign_influ... https://gnews.org/635457/ https://gnews.org/635457/ https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Asia-Insight/China-s-Belt-and-Road-ports-raise-red-flags-over-military-plans https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Asia-Insight/China-s-Belt-... (paywalled article) https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000017d-264b-df97-a9ff-be7f603e0000 https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000017d-264b-df97-a9ff-be7f6... https://www.hudson.org/research/17118-the-ccp-goes-to-hollywood https://www.hudson.org/research/17118-the-ccp-goes-to-hollyw... Far more dangerous than any hamfisted TV broadcasts.
FooBarWidget 5y ago
> I believe that you earnestly feel this is an okay thing for the CCP to do This is a wrong characterization. China has different values and practices. Freedom means something different in China than in the west. China values other things more than western-style freedom of speech. For example there is a greater emphasis on responsibility. The practice you quoted is unacceptable in the west. That's fine — for you. Chinese think differently and believe that such practices are sometimes necessary to prevent rumors from running wild and causing social instability. That's also fine — for them. I just want you to know that Chinese genuinely have a different opinion and a different perspective. That you disagree with them is fine. To each their own. The Chinese way would work disastrously in the west. The western way would work disastrously in China. Let each country decide what they value and how they want to do things.
- bardan 5y ago
  > The practice you quoted is unacceptable in the west. That's fine — for you. Chinese think differently and believe that such practices are sometimes necessary to prevent rumors from running wild and causing social instability. That's also fine — for them. What a marvelous coincidence for the CCP that "what Chinese people value", according to you, is the kind of submissive defference totalitarian governments desire from the people under their control.
  - FooBarWidget 5y ago
    And so what if you view them as totalitarian? By and large the Chinese do not. Let them decide what kind of society they want. There's no need for you to make the judgement for them. They aren't forcing their ways on you either.
    - bardan 5y ago
      They'd better not!
      - FooBarWidget 5y ago

sudosysgen 5y ago

You can be put into regular arrest without being charged for a crime for weeks in almost every country on earth and there is no obligation in most country to allow for more than one or two monitored calls that can be interrupted at any moment for any reason. As far as I know Jack Ma never criticized Xi. He criticized (international) banking regulations that were ratified in 2009 in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis and that he was not in compliance of. Legally in the United States that could very well put you in prison for fraud and you are not guaranteed the right to make a phone call or see family federally, though some states guarantee phone calls to some people on the day of arrest. Then the prosecutors can seal the indictment and you can be held for a year without anyone except your immediate family and attorney (if you can afford one) knowing. And then the prosecutors can drop chargers a few months later. What happened to Jack Ma could have happened in the US because he was did something (fraud) that is a federal crime in the US. Thankfully it doesn't happen often. You also don't know that he wasn't charged. He recorded himself giving probable cause for a crime. It was really stupid of him.

burntbridge 5y ago

But why should we as Westerners actually care? The majority of people in China are happy with their Government.

post_from_work 5y ago
>>>But why should we as Westerners actually care? Because the CCP has built a blue-water Navy, which it continues to expand, with the stated goal of dethroning the US as the global hegemon? https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/china-army-navy/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/china-ar... https://www.amazon.com/Unrestricted-Warfare-Chinas-Destroy-America/dp/1626543054 https://www.amazon.com/Unrestricted-Warfare-Chinas-Destroy-A... https://sg.news.yahoo.com/china-seeks-become-worlds-next-025553555.html https://sg.news.yahoo.com/china-seeks-become-worlds-next-025... Because the CCP conducts influence operations globally? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49511231 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49511231 https://uscnpm.org/2021/09/14/prc-overseas-influence-disaggregating-the-risks/ https://uscnpm.org/2021/09/14/prc-overseas-influence-disaggr...
- FooBarWidget 5y ago
  Influence operations... such as this? https://twitter.com/manyapan/status/1454346638596743173 https://twitter.com/manyapan/status/1454346638596743173 This is the typical level of Chinese influence operation. I really don't know why you're worried about it.
  - post_from_work 5y ago
    No, these are the typical levels of Chinese influence operations: https://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/chinese_malign_influence_report.pdf https://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/chinese_malign_influ... https://gnews.org/635457/ https://gnews.org/635457/ https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Asia-Insight/China-s-Belt-and-Road-ports-raise-red-flags-over-military-plans https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Asia-Insight/China-s-Belt-... (paywalled article) https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000017d-264b-df97-a9ff-be7f603e0000 https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000017d-264b-df97-a9ff-be7f6... https://www.hudson.org/research/17118-the-ccp-goes-to-hollywood https://www.hudson.org/research/17118-the-ccp-goes-to-hollyw... Far more dangerous than any hamfisted TV broadcasts.

FooBarWidget 5y ago

> I believe that you earnestly feel this is an okay thing for the CCP to do This is a wrong characterization. China has different values and practices. Freedom means something different in China than in the west. China values other things more than western-style freedom of speech. For example there is a greater emphasis on responsibility. The practice you quoted is unacceptable in the west. That's fine — for you. Chinese think differently and believe that such practices are sometimes necessary to prevent rumors from running wild and causing social instability. That's also fine — for them. I just want you to know that Chinese genuinely have a different opinion and a different perspective. That you disagree with them is fine. To each their own. The Chinese way would work disastrously in the west. The western way would work disastrously in China. Let each country decide what they value and how they want to do things.

bardan 5y ago
> The practice you quoted is unacceptable in the west. That's fine — for you. Chinese think differently and believe that such practices are sometimes necessary to prevent rumors from running wild and causing social instability. That's also fine — for them. What a marvelous coincidence for the CCP that "what Chinese people value", according to you, is the kind of submissive defference totalitarian governments desire from the people under their control.
- FooBarWidget 5y ago
  And so what if you view them as totalitarian? By and large the Chinese do not. Let them decide what kind of society they want. There's no need for you to make the judgement for them. They aren't forcing their ways on you either.
  - bardan 5y ago
    They'd better not!
    - FooBarWidget 5y ago