5 ms·

I've thought about this for a while. Imagine a line of "dumb" dishwashers, toasters, ovens, stoves, microwaves, etc., all well-designed and made with sturdy mat

I've thought about this for a while. Imagine a line of "dumb" dishwashers, toasters, ovens, stoves, microwaves, etc., all well-designed and made with sturdy materials. Unfortunately, I think they'd cost 6-10x going rate as modern "smart" appliances, and also the market for them would be restricted to HN commenters.

varelse 5y ago
Maybe less dumb and more easily repairable? Microcontrollers are great, just make a standardized component for all the things that can be unplugged and replaced and have at it. Why must we late-stage capitalism everything?
- Gigachad 5y ago
  I don't think that dishwashers and related appliances are fragile or that they are too hard to repair. It's just that the brand new manufacturing cost has become so insanely cheap while human labor has become extremely expensive. So when the dishwasher finally craps out, it just isn't worth paying someone to crack it open and fix it. Hobbyists are able to fix almost anything when they do it for fun in their free time as long as DRM isn't involved. It just isn't something that scales or can make a profit.
  - saalweachter 5y ago
    "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." Every new dishwasher is assembled the same way; potentially, every broken dishwasher is broken in a different way, and needs some different part and different fix. (I mean, there are probably a handful of problems that account for 90% of the failures of any appliance. But still.)
    - Gigachad 5y ago
      OEMs mostly deal with this by grouping everything in to modules. If a chip fries, they don't bother checking every chip to find it. They just replace the entire board. But it still requires someone to go to your house, pull the thing apart, and put the new one in which costs way more than robots in India putting the thing together almost unassisted.
rsynnott 5y ago
In washing machine land, Miele and a few others make these. They are indeed very, very expensive. Mind you, adjusted for inflation, so were the old ones; there has never really been an era of cheap top-quality appliances.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  But are they cheaper per year of service life?
  - showerst 5y ago
    You also have to account for the "pain in the neck" factor. A washing machine isn't a toaster, it's heavy and hard to move, and annoying to wait on a repair person or replacement.
  - pmyteh 5y ago
    Maybe. A standard Miele washing machine costs about £900, while a decent (but less durable) machine might cost half that or a bit less. Having done endless (eventually futile) repairs on an older washer that kept falling over out of warranty, I'd day this one at least looks like a better price per year's washing.
denton-scratch 5y ago
Washing machines were one of the first applications for microcontrollers. If you have an electric motor that's supposed to speed up, slow down, reverse, spin fast etc., all on a schedule, it's a no-brainer (pun intended). It's usually the pump that fails, but the controller-cards often fail too. Pumps and controller cards are, of course, outrageously expensive. These things are supposed to fail. Back in the day, they were much more reliable. I don't think it's "smart" tech that has made them less reliable; I think they've optimised their designs over the years, so that they nowadays fail just after the warranty ends. So what I want is kitchen equipment that is designed to last. For example, I bet they could build a washing machine that works perfectly for 30 years, for under £1,000. If they wanted to. It might not have 24 different program settings, but I only ever use one setting. Yeah, reliable equipment probably is a bit of a nerdy preoccupation; but you'd think at least someone would have a product to appeal to that niche. But nobody seems to want to compete on reliability. That makes me wonder if there is a cartel at work. [Edit] I actually don't mean to include Bosch in my comments about manufacturers; Bosch equipment I've had has been more reliable than other brands. But they still fail and need repairs much too often. Re. 30 years: that's how long my mother's Hoover twin-tub continued to provide service.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "Yeah, reliable equipment probably is a bit of a nerdy preoccupation" Efficient market hypothesis summed up in once sentence
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    /me not an economist! I don't see what my remark has to do with the EMH; perhaps you could explain.
- jfim 5y ago
  There are some companies that do build long lasting appliances. For example, one can buy a Speed Queen washing machine for home, and they're supposed to be comparable with their commercial laundromat offerings. They're also 2-4x the price of a similar washing machine. The big problem is that on the consumer side, it's pretty much impossible to evaluate durability of goods. Is the $80 toaster much more durable and better built than the $40 one, or is it just a "premium" offering that has the same internals but with a fancier appearance.
foundart 5y ago
I have wondered about this. It would likely start out very expensive but could get cheaper over time if it got any traction. Would it ever be as cheap as the current crop? Unlikely. The initial market would definitely be limited to those with an appreciation for the concept and the funds to support it but it seems possible that after establishing a niche brand known for quality and reliability you could expand beyond the early adopters. It would be an expensive experiment though.
fghorow 5y ago
Heck, I'd settle for a mil-spec umbrella. One that you don't have to replace every season!!! But they don't seem to exist AFAICT...
- loonster 5y ago
  The Weatherman Stick (or Golf) Umbrella looks like it might be BIFL. Its non collapsing, so less moving parts and has an aggressive canopy that claims it can withstand 55mph winds. I have never used it, just going on looks of how its constructed. At $69, I would hope its not a throwaway type. https://www.weathermanumbrella.com/ https://www.weathermanumbrella.com/
- pmyteh 5y ago
  A trip to https://www.james-smith.co.uk/ https://www.james-smith.co.uk/ will sort you out, next time you're in London. For a suitable price, naturally!
- _carbyau_ 5y ago
  Not milspec per se : https://bluntumbrella.com.au/ https://bluntumbrella.com.au/ Seems pretty sturdy but I am not a connoisseur of these things. We appreciated getting a particular size too.
Digit-Al 5y ago
I hope I don't curse myself saying this, but I bought an AEG washing machine over 9 years ago and so far have never had a problem with it.
botswana99 5y ago
I have wondered too. I am on on, like, my fourth toaster. They work for a few years then fail in some non fixable way. So I toss and order another from Amazon. Think of all the material waste. Not very eco-friendly. But it’s another 30 bucks and comes next day … Is there a market for ‘buy it for life’ toaster. The question is will people pay 2-4X as much as cheap china toaster? Would you pay $150 for a lifetime toaster with replaceable parts? Would you pay $200? Or just 20% more than the next model? Would the retro angle get people to do it? Would the eco angle? Or the ‘right to repair’ angle? Or is it just easier to toss the thing and get another from our friends in Seattle?
- convolvatron 5y ago
  I got a really lovely chrome single slice from...i think the 30s or 40s on ebay for $30. work required: completely dismantle. soak return coil spring assembly in mineral oil. make a new carbon contact by cutting down a motor brush replace cord with new cloth 3 conductor (plastic didn't look right) 10 years later and still works perfectly.
- askvictor 5y ago
  Looks like Dualit toasters fit that bill somewhat. But a set of replacement elements cost several times more than a cheap toaster.
  - pmyteh 5y ago
    You're not likely to need a complete set: they can be replaced individually. Mine is from about 1987, and I got it about 10 years ago on eBay. I've replaced one element card, as a result of a previous owner's dodgy repair causing arcing that eventually burned out a connector. The others look very old and are still fully functional. Having said that, I understand the clockwork timers also fail from time to time, and they aren't especially cheap. And the toast, while very good and continuously adjustable in hue, isn't quite magnificent.
userbinator 5y ago
Buying an old one and restoring it would probably be a better idea. All my white goods are several decades old and still work well with occasional periodic maintenance. That's the other thing: back then, they were designed to last with maintenance; now, they're designed to be "maintenance-free" until they break completely and in a very cost-prohibitive-to-repair way.

varelse 5y ago

Maybe less dumb and more easily repairable? Microcontrollers are great, just make a standardized component for all the things that can be unplugged and replaced and have at it. Why must we late-stage capitalism everything?

Gigachad 5y ago
I don't think that dishwashers and related appliances are fragile or that they are too hard to repair. It's just that the brand new manufacturing cost has become so insanely cheap while human labor has become extremely expensive. So when the dishwasher finally craps out, it just isn't worth paying someone to crack it open and fix it. Hobbyists are able to fix almost anything when they do it for fun in their free time as long as DRM isn't involved. It just isn't something that scales or can make a profit.
- saalweachter 5y ago
  "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." Every new dishwasher is assembled the same way; potentially, every broken dishwasher is broken in a different way, and needs some different part and different fix. (I mean, there are probably a handful of problems that account for 90% of the failures of any appliance. But still.)
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    OEMs mostly deal with this by grouping everything in to modules. If a chip fries, they don't bother checking every chip to find it. They just replace the entire board. But it still requires someone to go to your house, pull the thing apart, and put the new one in which costs way more than robots in India putting the thing together almost unassisted.

rsynnott 5y ago

In washing machine land, Miele and a few others make these. They are indeed very, very expensive. Mind you, adjusted for inflation, so were the old ones; there has never really been an era of cheap top-quality appliances.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
But are they cheaper per year of service life?
- showerst 5y ago
  You also have to account for the "pain in the neck" factor. A washing machine isn't a toaster, it's heavy and hard to move, and annoying to wait on a repair person or replacement.
- pmyteh 5y ago
  Maybe. A standard Miele washing machine costs about £900, while a decent (but less durable) machine might cost half that or a bit less. Having done endless (eventually futile) repairs on an older washer that kept falling over out of warranty, I'd day this one at least looks like a better price per year's washing.

denton-scratch 5y ago

Washing machines were one of the first applications for microcontrollers. If you have an electric motor that's supposed to speed up, slow down, reverse, spin fast etc., all on a schedule, it's a no-brainer (pun intended). It's usually the pump that fails, but the controller-cards often fail too. Pumps and controller cards are, of course, outrageously expensive. These things are supposed to fail. Back in the day, they were much more reliable. I don't think it's "smart" tech that has made them less reliable; I think they've optimised their designs over the years, so that they nowadays fail just after the warranty ends. So what I want is kitchen equipment that is designed to last. For example, I bet they could build a washing machine that works perfectly for 30 years, for under £1,000. If they wanted to. It might not have 24 different program settings, but I only ever use one setting. Yeah, reliable equipment probably is a bit of a nerdy preoccupation; but you'd think at least someone would have a product to appeal to that niche. But nobody seems to want to compete on reliability. That makes me wonder if there is a cartel at work. [Edit] I actually don't mean to include Bosch in my comments about manufacturers; Bosch equipment I've had has been more reliable than other brands. But they still fail and need repairs much too often. Re. 30 years: that's how long my mother's Hoover twin-tub continued to provide service.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"Yeah, reliable equipment probably is a bit of a nerdy preoccupation" Efficient market hypothesis summed up in once sentence
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  /me not an economist! I don't see what my remark has to do with the EMH; perhaps you could explain.
jfim 5y ago
There are some companies that do build long lasting appliances. For example, one can buy a Speed Queen washing machine for home, and they're supposed to be comparable with their commercial laundromat offerings. They're also 2-4x the price of a similar washing machine. The big problem is that on the consumer side, it's pretty much impossible to evaluate durability of goods. Is the $80 toaster much more durable and better built than the $40 one, or is it just a "premium" offering that has the same internals but with a fancier appearance.

foundart 5y ago

I have wondered about this. It would likely start out very expensive but could get cheaper over time if it got any traction. Would it ever be as cheap as the current crop? Unlikely. The initial market would definitely be limited to those with an appreciation for the concept and the funds to support it but it seems possible that after establishing a niche brand known for quality and reliability you could expand beyond the early adopters. It would be an expensive experiment though.

fghorow 5y ago

Heck, I'd settle for a mil-spec umbrella. One that you don't have to replace every season!!! But they don't seem to exist AFAICT...

loonster 5y ago
The Weatherman Stick (or Golf) Umbrella looks like it might be BIFL. Its non collapsing, so less moving parts and has an aggressive canopy that claims it can withstand 55mph winds. I have never used it, just going on looks of how its constructed. At $69, I would hope its not a throwaway type. https://www.weathermanumbrella.com/ https://www.weathermanumbrella.com/
pmyteh 5y ago
A trip to https://www.james-smith.co.uk/ https://www.james-smith.co.uk/ will sort you out, next time you're in London. For a suitable price, naturally!
_carbyau_ 5y ago
Not milspec per se : https://bluntumbrella.com.au/ https://bluntumbrella.com.au/ Seems pretty sturdy but I am not a connoisseur of these things. We appreciated getting a particular size too.

Digit-Al 5y ago

I hope I don't curse myself saying this, but I bought an AEG washing machine over 9 years ago and so far have never had a problem with it.

botswana99 5y ago

I have wondered too. I am on on, like, my fourth toaster. They work for a few years then fail in some non fixable way. So I toss and order another from Amazon. Think of all the material waste. Not very eco-friendly. But it’s another 30 bucks and comes next day … Is there a market for ‘buy it for life’ toaster. The question is will people pay 2-4X as much as cheap china toaster? Would you pay $150 for a lifetime toaster with replaceable parts? Would you pay $200? Or just 20% more than the next model? Would the retro angle get people to do it? Would the eco angle? Or the ‘right to repair’ angle? Or is it just easier to toss the thing and get another from our friends in Seattle?

convolvatron 5y ago
I got a really lovely chrome single slice from...i think the 30s or 40s on ebay for $30. work required: completely dismantle. soak return coil spring assembly in mineral oil. make a new carbon contact by cutting down a motor brush replace cord with new cloth 3 conductor (plastic didn't look right) 10 years later and still works perfectly.
askvictor 5y ago
Looks like Dualit toasters fit that bill somewhat. But a set of replacement elements cost several times more than a cheap toaster.
- pmyteh 5y ago
  You're not likely to need a complete set: they can be replaced individually. Mine is from about 1987, and I got it about 10 years ago on eBay. I've replaced one element card, as a result of a previous owner's dodgy repair causing arcing that eventually burned out a connector. The others look very old and are still fully functional. Having said that, I understand the clockwork timers also fail from time to time, and they aren't especially cheap. And the toast, while very good and continuously adjustable in hue, isn't quite magnificent.

userbinator 5y ago

Buying an old one and restoring it would probably be a better idea. All my white goods are several decades old and still work well with occasional periodic maintenance. That's the other thing: back then, they were designed to last with maintenance; now, they're designed to be "maintenance-free" until they break completely and in a very cost-prohibitive-to-repair way.