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"Less than a penny"? Absolutely not, in any way. If you want to claim this works, you will need to actually show what exact steps to take, and what fees that

"Less than a penny"? Absolutely not, in any way. If you want to claim this works, you will need to actually show what exact steps to take, and what fees that will cost, to transfer money into my hand. Because there are a LOT of fees in that process.

0x64 5y ago
Maybe not less than a penny, but $0.20–0.35 on the cheapest Ethereum L2 rollups [1]. That'll drop by almost an order of magnitude more in the short-term if/when the calldata gas fee reduction EIP passes (could be medium-term if it doesn't get implemented before the merge). Long-term, it should drop to fractions of a cent once sharding is implemented. But, that's years away and hardly relevant. [1] https://l2fees.info/ https://l2fees.info/
- user-the-name 5y ago
  You left out many steps there, all of which will charge you fees. Try again. Go from actual money from the sender, to actual money for the receiver. Sum up the fees.
  - 0x64 5y ago
    What steps did I skip? Some exchanges already allow withdrawals to L2s, and Coinbase is working on it. Once social recovery wallets like Argent start to onboard users directly to L2 (zkSync), L1 might as well not exist for the regular Joe since it's completely abstracted away. The situation for current L1 users is obviously different, but those people probably aren't the most fee-sensitive users anyway, since sending money with $5+ fees is hardly viable for so-called everyday use.
    - anonymoushn 5y ago
      The user you're replying to would like you to include depositing and withdrawing money at crypto exchanges, because they believe database entries at banks and PayPal are money and database entries at crypto exchanges are not.
      - user-the-name 5y ago
        It is not me not believing that. It is the shop where I buy my dinner that is not believing that. That is what matters.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      Actual money, that you get from a job, and that you pay your living costs in. End to end.
      - 0x64 5y ago
        I don't understand. Is the trick in your question the fact that you're inevitably paid in fiat and you have to buy crypto, thus proving that crypto is useless as a currency?
        user-the-name 5y ago
        The topic is remittances, and the claim is that cryptocurrencies are good at them. Remittances are when a person in one country sends money to another person in a different country. Usually, the first person works to earn wages, and sends them back home to their family, who use them to pay for living expenses. To do this, you need to go from money in hand to money in hand. Anything else is useless. Again, the claim is that cryptocurrency is good at this. If you want to claim that it is, you have to actually show how to do that exact thing.
        0x64 5y ago
        When did I claim such a thing? I claimed that the transaction fees were getting to fractions of cents.
        user-the-name 5y ago
        The original claim I am responding to is "International remittances in seconds for less than a penny". That, in any reasonable reading, would mean that the sum of all feels required to do "international remittance" would be less than a penny. This is clearly not true. The claim that one small part of the fees is actually less than a penny is not really relevant to this.
        anonymoushn 5y ago
anonymoushn 5y ago
Sure. You can generate a solana keypair with solana-keygen[0] or using a wallet such as Sollet[1] or Phantom[2]. Then, if you share your address, I can send you USDC. I will pay a fee of less than a penny worth of native tokens for the transaction, which will settle in seconds. I will also pay about 20 cents worth of native tokens to create the USDC account associated with your solana address, but this cost only occurs once. Additional sendings of USDC will not incur this cost of about 20 cents. In fact, the about 20 cents worth of native token will be recoverable by you! If you move all the USDC out of that account, then you can delete the USDC account and receive the native tokens that were locked up to pay for storage of its data. As an aside, an upcoming update to the software that runs this particular slow database will greatly lower the cost per byte of permanent storage such as the USDC account discussed above. If you want to obtain dollar bills in your hand, I guess you'd need to also go to a bank and a crypto exchange or something. But this is a really general-purpose gotcha, like if I told you Japanese yen were worth money and you asked me how to get dollars in hand, then you'd probably have to go to a third party to fix your problem of having Japanese yen instead of dollars, and you'll probably have to go to their branch with your ID and do a bunch of paperwork if you don't have an existing relationship with them. You'd be in even more trouble if I gave you a Japanese transit card with a stored balance of Japanese yen on it, because then the process for recovering the yen would involve showing up in person to a certain office in Japan, and the fee implicit in all this (buy card -> load yen on card -> redeem card for yen) would be a backbreaking couple dollars. But I think it would be silly to deny that you are in posession of yen if you have such a transit card, and silly to deny that you are in posession of USDC tokens that entitle you to dollars held by Circle (supposedly invested in US treasuries) if you control a keypair that controls the USDC. Thanks. [0]: https://docs.solana.com/cli/conventions https://docs.solana.com/cli/conventions [1]: https://sollet.io/ https://sollet.io/ [2]: https://phantom.app/ https://phantom.app/
- user-the-name 5y ago
  Yes, you need to include all the steps, from dollars in the hand of the sender to local currency in the hand of the receiver. That is what Wells Fargo offers, and you want to compare to them, you need to provide the same service. Of course you can charge less if you do less of the work. But that is meaningless. Tell us the actual fees from money in hand to money in hand.

0x64 5y ago

Maybe not less than a penny, but $0.20–0.35 on the cheapest Ethereum L2 rollups [1]. That'll drop by almost an order of magnitude more in the short-term if/when the calldata gas fee reduction EIP passes (could be medium-term if it doesn't get implemented before the merge). Long-term, it should drop to fractions of a cent once sharding is implemented. But, that's years away and hardly relevant. [1] https://l2fees.info/ https://l2fees.info/

user-the-name 5y ago
You left out many steps there, all of which will charge you fees. Try again. Go from actual money from the sender, to actual money for the receiver. Sum up the fees.
- 0x64 5y ago
  What steps did I skip? Some exchanges already allow withdrawals to L2s, and Coinbase is working on it. Once social recovery wallets like Argent start to onboard users directly to L2 (zkSync), L1 might as well not exist for the regular Joe since it's completely abstracted away. The situation for current L1 users is obviously different, but those people probably aren't the most fee-sensitive users anyway, since sending money with $5+ fees is hardly viable for so-called everyday use.
  - anonymoushn 5y ago
    The user you're replying to would like you to include depositing and withdrawing money at crypto exchanges, because they believe database entries at banks and PayPal are money and database entries at crypto exchanges are not.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      It is not me not believing that. It is the shop where I buy my dinner that is not believing that. That is what matters.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    Actual money, that you get from a job, and that you pay your living costs in. End to end.
    - 0x64 5y ago
      I don't understand. Is the trick in your question the fact that you're inevitably paid in fiat and you have to buy crypto, thus proving that crypto is useless as a currency?
      - user-the-name 5y ago
        The topic is remittances, and the claim is that cryptocurrencies are good at them. Remittances are when a person in one country sends money to another person in a different country. Usually, the first person works to earn wages, and sends them back home to their family, who use them to pay for living expenses. To do this, you need to go from money in hand to money in hand. Anything else is useless. Again, the claim is that cryptocurrency is good at this. If you want to claim that it is, you have to actually show how to do that exact thing.
        0x64 5y ago
        When did I claim such a thing? I claimed that the transaction fees were getting to fractions of cents.
        user-the-name 5y ago
        The original claim I am responding to is "International remittances in seconds for less than a penny". That, in any reasonable reading, would mean that the sum of all feels required to do "international remittance" would be less than a penny. This is clearly not true. The claim that one small part of the fees is actually less than a penny is not really relevant to this.
        anonymoushn 5y ago

anonymoushn 5y ago

Sure. You can generate a solana keypair with solana-keygen[0] or using a wallet such as Sollet[1] or Phantom[2]. Then, if you share your address, I can send you USDC. I will pay a fee of less than a penny worth of native tokens for the transaction, which will settle in seconds. I will also pay about 20 cents worth of native tokens to create the USDC account associated with your solana address, but this cost only occurs once. Additional sendings of USDC will not incur this cost of about 20 cents. In fact, the about 20 cents worth of native token will be recoverable by you! If you move all the USDC out of that account, then you can delete the USDC account and receive the native tokens that were locked up to pay for storage of its data. As an aside, an upcoming update to the software that runs this particular slow database will greatly lower the cost per byte of permanent storage such as the USDC account discussed above. If you want to obtain dollar bills in your hand, I guess you'd need to also go to a bank and a crypto exchange or something. But this is a really general-purpose gotcha, like if I told you Japanese yen were worth money and you asked me how to get dollars in hand, then you'd probably have to go to a third party to fix your problem of having Japanese yen instead of dollars, and you'll probably have to go to their branch with your ID and do a bunch of paperwork if you don't have an existing relationship with them. You'd be in even more trouble if I gave you a Japanese transit card with a stored balance of Japanese yen on it, because then the process for recovering the yen would involve showing up in person to a certain office in Japan, and the fee implicit in all this (buy card -> load yen on card -> redeem card for yen) would be a backbreaking couple dollars. But I think it would be silly to deny that you are in posession of yen if you have such a transit card, and silly to deny that you are in posession of USDC tokens that entitle you to dollars held by Circle (supposedly invested in US treasuries) if you control a keypair that controls the USDC. Thanks. [0]: https://docs.solana.com/cli/conventions https://docs.solana.com/cli/conventions [1]: https://sollet.io/ https://sollet.io/ [2]: https://phantom.app/ https://phantom.app/

user-the-name 5y ago
Yes, you need to include all the steps, from dollars in the hand of the sender to local currency in the hand of the receiver. That is what Wells Fargo offers, and you want to compare to them, you need to provide the same service. Of course you can charge less if you do less of the work. But that is meaningless. Tell us the actual fees from money in hand to money in hand.