5 ms·

I'd say if we could pick a clean slate design for everyone then I'd go with the Swiss[1] one. Maybe also run it at 400V since modern cables should be able to ha

by ginko 5y ago

I'd say if we could pick a clean slate design for everyone then I'd go with the Swiss[1] one. Maybe also run it at 400V since modern cables should be able to handle that. [1] https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Swiss1.html https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Swiss1.html

_djo_ 5y ago
The Swiss one was codified as an international standard as IEC 60906-1, which South Africa and Brazil have adopted, so it should be the de facto option for any country looking to replace their current system. The problem with replacing British plugs is that they need fuses because most British houses are wired with ring circuits, instead of radial circuits like the rest of the world. So I don't see them moving to a new standard any time soon.
- TorKlingberg 5y ago
  Specifically most UK mains are fused at 30A, which is more than appliance cables are rated for. So you need a fuse in either the plug or the socket.
  - _djo_ 5y ago
    Thanks for that clarification!
dingo454 5y ago
I really like this design due to how compact it is. Italy has an almost identical historical design*, but the earth is not offset so LN can be swapped. Both plugs and sockets are very compact, which is a far cry from the emerging standard which is the shuko/europlug which takes twice the space. Almost all new houses are equipped with shuko sockets. But the sockets here do not have the additional prong to avoid swapping the neutral, so they're effectively just a waste of space. * at least, we have two sizes for it, a smaller one rated for 8A, and the newer for 16A which we commonly have today.
- afiori 5y ago
  In Italy in practice there are 4 common plugs, 2 type L (big and small), the schuko (type F) with many variations and the europlug. the compatibility table is not trivial (in particular the europlug is compatible with everithing except the big type L sockets) and while new houses might be to nicer standards, there are a lot of very old houses in italy (i lived in a house from ~1850) and many public spaces use the cheapest sockets they can find so you either get a small type L (accepts also europlugs) a simple schuko (accepts also europlugs and unhearthed small type L) or a big type L (accepts only big type L).
  - dingo454 5y ago
    Oh I know, I lived in a old house as well and circled through europe so I've seen/suffered all the plugs from UK/France/Germany/Italy... In this regard, long live the "europlug" and the trend switching towards type F sockets. But I was just lamenting the bulkiness of it in general.
  - hvusslax 5y ago
    Is the BTicino plug (https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Italian2.html https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Italian2.html) used at all in Italy now? There was a serious attempt at adopting it in Iceland in the late 1970s to early 1980s. These sockets can still be found in homes that were built in that period and they are just called "Italian sockets".
    - afiori 5y ago
      Never seen such a plug before in my life, but I have spent very little time anywhere near Ticino In Italy I have mostly seen (https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Italian1.html https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Italian1.html) 1,2,4,5, schukos like 17a and when lucky schukos like 9 and 10; I have never seen most of the others.
    - dingo454 5y ago
      Never seen this one in Italy, and I've been in several fairly old buildings.
silon42 5y ago
In Slovenia/ex-Yu we had a very similiar (but bigger) 3 phase (400V) plug/socket like that (https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Obsolete_3hd.html https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Obsolete_3hd.html #9,10). You can still find it in old houses. One probably could force the Europlug into it (looks very close), I haven't tried.
lukeh 5y ago
I have a vague memory of getting the Apple (two-pronged) Swiss and European travel kit plugs mixed up, slightly different tolerances, resulting in one very hard to remove iPhone charger.
- cardinalfang 5y ago
  Similarly you can fit a UK shaver into a Europlug socket, but may not be able to get it out again.
londons_explore 5y ago
In a clean slate design, I would have all power 5 volts unless negotiated higher. And it could be negotiated up to 100,000 volts for charging cars with a thin cool cable. 100,000 volts is perfectly safe as long as system capacitance is kept tiny, and leakage current constantly measured. In fact, the voltage of the sparks when you take off a fleece jumper are more than that.
- 7952 5y ago
  Such a system would need a box in the basement and lots of seperate wires to outlets, which would be expensive. Or it would need to put more smarts in wall sockets, similar to adding USB. This is more of a safety risk than just plugging in a usb charger. It requires more skill to install, reduces seperation between high and low voltage parts, could become obselete and has components that might wear out. Also, any system that encourages the use of extension cables is a safety risk. The last thing we want is someone plugging a 5kw heater into an extension cord bought on Ebay. The current system is nice and flexible and simple enough to be safe. Extension cords work well when you are plugging in a bunch of usb devices and tv/laptop/console. But you can also use the same outlet for a hair dryer or a mixer. Higher current devices like ovens, showers, and cars need to be treated seperately to prevent unsuitable parts adding a fire risk. Lack of compatability to domestic appliances is a feature.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    > The current system is [...] safe. Well, it kills 1000+ people per year in electrical fires in the USA alone. We would never allow electricity in homes like this if it were invented today. > Such a system would need a box in the basement and lots of seperate wires to outlets. Yes. But if high voltages can safely be used, and the system is safe in case a cable gets chafed, then the wires become super thin like headphone wires, and overall, the whole system could be produced cheaper than existing systems which use a lot of copper and plastic. Fire is eliminated too, because a high tech solution measures power losses at every connection, and as soon as enough is unaccounted for to possibly be heating something up to the point of a fire, it switches off. The main disadvantage is that every appliance or device needs circuitry to measure power flows. This is mitigated by the fact that voltage is variable - low power devices could simply run off 5 to 20 volts at sub-1-amp and not bother with any fancy measurement. Only high power stuff would need the high voltages and all the safety circuitry.
barrkel 5y ago
Wall warts of various kinds don't work well with the typical Swiss cluster of three sockets at 120 degree angles to each other. Frequently, various extenders need to be added to actually plug more than one thing into the cluster. Wires typically come out directly from the rear of the plug, making for a not particularly neat plug scenario. I find myself using 90-degree adapters a lot of the time. Extension bars also often take advantage of the reduced space requirements, meaning that many of the slots can't be used if you're plugging in any wall warts there. Finally, UK electricity is 13A @ 240V, whereas Swiss electricity - like most of continental Europe - is 10A @ 220V. The gap here is significant when (a) you need to extend a socket because of space constraints, especially in the kitchen, and (b) when you want a fast-boiling kettle. I had to get a new kettle when I moved to Switzerland and it's noticeably slower to boil.
- MayeulC 5y ago
  > Finally, UK electricity is 13A @ 240V, whereas Swiss electricity - like most of continental Europe - is 10A @ 220V I wonder where you got this idea. Both are 230V. Schulko plugs are 10 or 16 amps (with bigger connectors), 16 A is quite common in my experience. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEE_7_standard_AC_plugs_and_sockets#CEE_7/3_socket_and_CEE_7/4_plug_(German_%22Schuko%22;_Type_F) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEE_7_standard_AC_plugs_and_so... https://www.leadsdirect.co.uk/knowledge-base/what-is-the-difference-between-uk-voltage-and-european-voltage/ https://www.leadsdirect.co.uk/knowledge-base/what-is-the-dif... > EU 230V -10% +6% (i.e. 207.0 V-243.8 V) > UK 230V -6% +10% (i.e. 216.2 V – 253.0 V)
cranekam 5y ago
Another cool thing about the Swiss system is the derived 3 phase T15/T25 plugs: https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Swiss_3hd.html https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Swiss_3hd.html Our washing machine uses a T15 plug but the socket can also accept a T12 single phase plug instead. (As a Brit, I'd also pick the Swiss plug as the best, except that the fuseless design wouldn't be good in the UK because of the 30A ring system described in another comment.)

by ginko 5y ago

_djo_ 5y ago

The Swiss one was codified as an international standard as IEC 60906-1, which South Africa and Brazil have adopted, so it should be the de facto option for any country looking to replace their current system. The problem with replacing British plugs is that they need fuses because most British houses are wired with ring circuits, instead of radial circuits like the rest of the world. So I don't see them moving to a new standard any time soon.

TorKlingberg 5y ago
Specifically most UK mains are fused at 30A, which is more than appliance cables are rated for. So you need a fuse in either the plug or the socket.
- _djo_ 5y ago
  Thanks for that clarification!

dingo454 5y ago

I really like this design due to how compact it is. Italy has an almost identical historical design*, but the earth is not offset so LN can be swapped. Both plugs and sockets are very compact, which is a far cry from the emerging standard which is the shuko/europlug which takes twice the space. Almost all new houses are equipped with shuko sockets. But the sockets here do not have the additional prong to avoid swapping the neutral, so they're effectively just a waste of space. * at least, we have two sizes for it, a smaller one rated for 8A, and the newer for 16A which we commonly have today.

afiori 5y ago
In Italy in practice there are 4 common plugs, 2 type L (big and small), the schuko (type F) with many variations and the europlug. the compatibility table is not trivial (in particular the europlug is compatible with everithing except the big type L sockets) and while new houses might be to nicer standards, there are a lot of very old houses in italy (i lived in a house from ~1850) and many public spaces use the cheapest sockets they can find so you either get a small type L (accepts also europlugs) a simple schuko (accepts also europlugs and unhearthed small type L) or a big type L (accepts only big type L).
- dingo454 5y ago
  Oh I know, I lived in a old house as well and circled through europe so I've seen/suffered all the plugs from UK/France/Germany/Italy... In this regard, long live the "europlug" and the trend switching towards type F sockets. But I was just lamenting the bulkiness of it in general.
- hvusslax 5y ago
  Is the BTicino plug (https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Italian2.html https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Italian2.html) used at all in Italy now? There was a serious attempt at adopting it in Iceland in the late 1970s to early 1980s. These sockets can still be found in homes that were built in that period and they are just called "Italian sockets".
  - afiori 5y ago
    Never seen such a plug before in my life, but I have spent very little time anywhere near Ticino In Italy I have mostly seen (https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Italian1.html https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Italian1.html) 1,2,4,5, schukos like 17a and when lucky schukos like 9 and 10; I have never seen most of the others.
  - dingo454 5y ago
    Never seen this one in Italy, and I've been in several fairly old buildings.

silon42 5y ago

In Slovenia/ex-Yu we had a very similiar (but bigger) 3 phase (400V) plug/socket like that (https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Obsolete_3hd.html https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Obsolete_3hd.html #9,10). You can still find it in old houses. One probably could force the Europlug into it (looks very close), I haven't tried.

lukeh 5y ago

I have a vague memory of getting the Apple (two-pronged) Swiss and European travel kit plugs mixed up, slightly different tolerances, resulting in one very hard to remove iPhone charger.

cardinalfang 5y ago
Similarly you can fit a UK shaver into a Europlug socket, but may not be able to get it out again.

londons_explore 5y ago

In a clean slate design, I would have all power 5 volts unless negotiated higher. And it could be negotiated up to 100,000 volts for charging cars with a thin cool cable. 100,000 volts is perfectly safe as long as system capacitance is kept tiny, and leakage current constantly measured. In fact, the voltage of the sparks when you take off a fleece jumper are more than that.

7952 5y ago
Such a system would need a box in the basement and lots of seperate wires to outlets, which would be expensive. Or it would need to put more smarts in wall sockets, similar to adding USB. This is more of a safety risk than just plugging in a usb charger. It requires more skill to install, reduces seperation between high and low voltage parts, could become obselete and has components that might wear out. Also, any system that encourages the use of extension cables is a safety risk. The last thing we want is someone plugging a 5kw heater into an extension cord bought on Ebay. The current system is nice and flexible and simple enough to be safe. Extension cords work well when you are plugging in a bunch of usb devices and tv/laptop/console. But you can also use the same outlet for a hair dryer or a mixer. Higher current devices like ovens, showers, and cars need to be treated seperately to prevent unsuitable parts adding a fire risk. Lack of compatability to domestic appliances is a feature.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  > The current system is [...] safe. Well, it kills 1000+ people per year in electrical fires in the USA alone. We would never allow electricity in homes like this if it were invented today. > Such a system would need a box in the basement and lots of seperate wires to outlets. Yes. But if high voltages can safely be used, and the system is safe in case a cable gets chafed, then the wires become super thin like headphone wires, and overall, the whole system could be produced cheaper than existing systems which use a lot of copper and plastic. Fire is eliminated too, because a high tech solution measures power losses at every connection, and as soon as enough is unaccounted for to possibly be heating something up to the point of a fire, it switches off. The main disadvantage is that every appliance or device needs circuitry to measure power flows. This is mitigated by the fact that voltage is variable - low power devices could simply run off 5 to 20 volts at sub-1-amp and not bother with any fancy measurement. Only high power stuff would need the high voltages and all the safety circuitry.

barrkel 5y ago

Wall warts of various kinds don't work well with the typical Swiss cluster of three sockets at 120 degree angles to each other. Frequently, various extenders need to be added to actually plug more than one thing into the cluster. Wires typically come out directly from the rear of the plug, making for a not particularly neat plug scenario. I find myself using 90-degree adapters a lot of the time. Extension bars also often take advantage of the reduced space requirements, meaning that many of the slots can't be used if you're plugging in any wall warts there. Finally, UK electricity is 13A @ 240V, whereas Swiss electricity - like most of continental Europe - is 10A @ 220V. The gap here is significant when (a) you need to extend a socket because of space constraints, especially in the kitchen, and (b) when you want a fast-boiling kettle. I had to get a new kettle when I moved to Switzerland and it's noticeably slower to boil.

MayeulC 5y ago
> Finally, UK electricity is 13A @ 240V, whereas Swiss electricity - like most of continental Europe - is 10A @ 220V I wonder where you got this idea. Both are 230V. Schulko plugs are 10 or 16 amps (with bigger connectors), 16 A is quite common in my experience. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEE_7_standard_AC_plugs_and_sockets#CEE_7/3_socket_and_CEE_7/4_plug_(German_%22Schuko%22;_Type_F) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEE_7_standard_AC_plugs_and_so... https://www.leadsdirect.co.uk/knowledge-base/what-is-the-difference-between-uk-voltage-and-european-voltage/ https://www.leadsdirect.co.uk/knowledge-base/what-is-the-dif... > EU 230V -10% +6% (i.e. 207.0 V-243.8 V) > UK 230V -6% +10% (i.e. 216.2 V – 253.0 V)

cranekam 5y ago

Another cool thing about the Swiss system is the derived 3 phase T15/T25 plugs: https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Swiss_3hd.html https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Swiss_3hd.html Our washing machine uses a T15 plug but the socket can also accept a T12 single phase plug instead. (As a Brit, I'd also pick the Swiss plug as the best, except that the fuseless design wouldn't be good in the UK because of the 30A ring system described in another comment.)