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One thing where infrastructure and laws need to catch up is that while ebikes enjoy similar privileges to bikes (access to bike paths, use of mixed pedestrian/c

One thing where infrastructure and laws need to catch up is that while ebikes enjoy similar privileges to bikes (access to bike paths, use of mixed pedestrian/cyclist paths etc), many are basically electric scooters, way more powerful and heavy than any bike. In my town, you see a lot of full-fledged electric scooters with vestigial pedals for pretending it’s a bike (and it seems a togglable speed limiter). They then terrorise the kids and other less confident cyclists, or indeed pedestrians when they fancy like a ride on the pavement. That’s not great either. The premise of an ebike is something with similar power output to a push bike, just lower user power use. These e-not-really-bikes are dangerous to cyclists.

bjackman 5y ago
Here in Zürich, and I think many parts of Europe, the rule is simple: to be regulated like normal bikes the motor can't push you past 25km/h. With this limit I have not personally had any issues with E-Bikes/scooters being a hazard. On the other side of the coin, 25km/h is a bit slower than I ride my pushbike, but plenty fast enough to make E-Bikes/scooters an attractive solution. I'm pretty happy with this balance - my only gripe with the shared scooters is people park them inconsiderately.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  I think it’s a good law, and it’s the same in the UK, just not enforced at all. It spills over to other things electric, you have electric scooters zooming on pavements around school kids and unexpecting pedestrians, it’s terrible I think but totally ignored. It feels like electric mobility is prioritised over pedestrian safety. Maybe because the police think these scooters displace cars (so net safety win) but I still don’t like it.
  - dpatterbee 5y ago
    The UK (or at least my city) has a problem where a lot of places have just enough bike infrastructure to be dangerous. People can get some % of the way from A to B without trouble, but then resort to the pavement when they get to a busy road without proper infrastructure. Also doesn't help that many councils seem to think that shared bus/bicycle lanes are bicycle infrastructure.
    - rich_sasha 5y ago
      > Also doesn't help that many councils seem to think that shared bus/bicycle lanes are bicycle infrastructure. I’ll take that over bikes / scooters on the pavement any day. Perhaps my view is skewed by the fact that I’m usually faster than a (frequently stopping) bus so at most I’m annoyed when it comes to overtaking.
      - denton-scratch 5y ago
        I'm not sure when the law changed here (UK); until a few years ago, it was a criminal offence to ride a powered vehicle on the footway, and a different criminal offence to ride an electric scooter on the carriageway (not taxed, not certified for safety). So it was illegaal to ride an electric scooter on public land. Now local authorities are making deals with Chinese scooter-rental companies, and little scooter parks are popping up on the footway all over town. I nearly got knocked down by a rental e-scooter just yesterday - I was walking on the footway, the scooter zoomed past me with 3" clearance. I disapprove of local authorities making deals with retailers (advertising hoardings on the footway) and scooter firms to "monetise" space that's supposed to be reserved for pedestrians.
        udp 5y ago
        > I disapprove of local authorities making deals with retailers (advertising hoardings on the footway) and scooter firms to "monetise" space that's supposed to be reserved for pedestrians Except the app specifically tells you, after you send it a picture of your driving license to unlock the scooter, that you’re only allowed to ride it on roads <= 30mph and cycle paths.
        denton-scratch 5y ago
        My point is that the scooter parks have been carved out of the footway; the local authority is licensing the use of the footway for things other than pedestrians. I try to avoid brushing past people on the pavement/footway/sidewalk; these obstructions make the footway one-way, so I just have to wait until the path is clear. This becomes insane if there's also a bus stop - the bus queue takes up all the space that's left after the scooter parks and signboards have taken their bite. I have to step into the carriageway.
  - multjoy 5y ago
    The police in the UK aren't enforcing it because they haven't got sufficient resources. It's not a policy decision.
- IkmoIkmo 5y ago
  The 25km/h limit is EU legislation as far as I know, so indeed it'll be in almost all of Europe. I think the issue is two-fold: 1) There's not much enforcement. Many units can be set to go say 32km/h with a software update. And speedbikes (which can look virtually the same) can go 45km/h, which require a helmet and must be on the car-road, but are often driven as regular e-bikes on bikelanes or the pavement. 2) The 25km/h really can be too fast, already. One must consider that in-city biking typically is done at say 9 to 15km/h, averaging 12km/h. The speed difference between an average cycler and his low (9) or higher-end (15) peers is typically about 3km/h. An e-bike going 25 changes the calculus, now the difference is 13km/h, or double the speed of the regular bike. And that creates a lot of issues. Overtaking is statistically the biggest source of accidents, and it happens way more frequently if the lane is shared by bikes going 12 and 25, rather than all averaging 12. And the act of overtaking is more dangerous too if it's done on a lane which has a large variance in speeds. I'd love to see a limit of 20km/h, and a limit to 50% pedal assist, on bike infrastructure. That keeps the speed differences low, and it reinforces that one must bike, and put in effort. Right now the experience as a biker is that you're sharing a lane with motorised electric scooters, going twice your speed, and doing it by essentially pressing a button. I think electric motorised two-tire vehicles are still a great solution at 25 or 45km/h, but not regulated as bikes, but rather regulated as a scooter. That could mean having to wear a helmet, having to have a (light) license, a license-plate (to allow enforcement of rules), being 18+, riding on a separate lane with traffic going similar speeds.
KingMachiavelli 5y ago
But was the point of the infrastructure built for cyclists or commuters using bikes? In the absence of intentional malice, I don't see why a throttled e-bike user should not be able to use bike lanes and bike paths. Seems like the solution is just a speed limit. If I have to travel a few miles on a standard road before getting to an area with bike paths... I can't really switch to a different bike. But having a electric scooter type bike makes a lot of sense if the purpose is commuting. Cyclists in NY are infamous for being obnoxious/dangerous to pedestrians and even car drivers and they accomplish that without electric bikes.
gnopgnip 5y ago
It helps to put some perspective in when saying they are heavier and more powerful. A typical cyclist can put out around 250w of power for a short duration, a US street legal ebike will do 250-750w. An average American male weighs ~200lbs, a typical mountain bike or cruiser will be 20-25lbs, a commuter type ebike will be 65lbs. A road bike, or road style ebike would be lighter, a cargo bike would be heavier. So an ebike weighs ~15% more overall, but combined with someone pedaling has 2-4x the power of a regular bike. Compared to a Tesla model 3 performance, it weighs 4250lbs, 16x as much, rated for 350kw, 350x the power. Even a Smart car one of the smallest cars in the US weighs ~8x as much and has 60x the power of an ebike.

bjackman 5y ago

Here in Zürich, and I think many parts of Europe, the rule is simple: to be regulated like normal bikes the motor can't push you past 25km/h. With this limit I have not personally had any issues with E-Bikes/scooters being a hazard. On the other side of the coin, 25km/h is a bit slower than I ride my pushbike, but plenty fast enough to make E-Bikes/scooters an attractive solution. I'm pretty happy with this balance - my only gripe with the shared scooters is people park them inconsiderately.

rich_sasha 5y ago
I think it’s a good law, and it’s the same in the UK, just not enforced at all. It spills over to other things electric, you have electric scooters zooming on pavements around school kids and unexpecting pedestrians, it’s terrible I think but totally ignored. It feels like electric mobility is prioritised over pedestrian safety. Maybe because the police think these scooters displace cars (so net safety win) but I still don’t like it.
- dpatterbee 5y ago
  The UK (or at least my city) has a problem where a lot of places have just enough bike infrastructure to be dangerous. People can get some % of the way from A to B without trouble, but then resort to the pavement when they get to a busy road without proper infrastructure. Also doesn't help that many councils seem to think that shared bus/bicycle lanes are bicycle infrastructure.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    > Also doesn't help that many councils seem to think that shared bus/bicycle lanes are bicycle infrastructure. I’ll take that over bikes / scooters on the pavement any day. Perhaps my view is skewed by the fact that I’m usually faster than a (frequently stopping) bus so at most I’m annoyed when it comes to overtaking.
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
      I'm not sure when the law changed here (UK); until a few years ago, it was a criminal offence to ride a powered vehicle on the footway, and a different criminal offence to ride an electric scooter on the carriageway (not taxed, not certified for safety). So it was illegaal to ride an electric scooter on public land. Now local authorities are making deals with Chinese scooter-rental companies, and little scooter parks are popping up on the footway all over town. I nearly got knocked down by a rental e-scooter just yesterday - I was walking on the footway, the scooter zoomed past me with 3" clearance. I disapprove of local authorities making deals with retailers (advertising hoardings on the footway) and scooter firms to "monetise" space that's supposed to be reserved for pedestrians.
      - udp 5y ago
        > I disapprove of local authorities making deals with retailers (advertising hoardings on the footway) and scooter firms to "monetise" space that's supposed to be reserved for pedestrians Except the app specifically tells you, after you send it a picture of your driving license to unlock the scooter, that you’re only allowed to ride it on roads <= 30mph and cycle paths.
        denton-scratch 5y ago
        My point is that the scooter parks have been carved out of the footway; the local authority is licensing the use of the footway for things other than pedestrians. I try to avoid brushing past people on the pavement/footway/sidewalk; these obstructions make the footway one-way, so I just have to wait until the path is clear. This becomes insane if there's also a bus stop - the bus queue takes up all the space that's left after the scooter parks and signboards have taken their bite. I have to step into the carriageway.
- multjoy 5y ago
  The police in the UK aren't enforcing it because they haven't got sufficient resources. It's not a policy decision.
IkmoIkmo 5y ago
The 25km/h limit is EU legislation as far as I know, so indeed it'll be in almost all of Europe. I think the issue is two-fold: 1) There's not much enforcement. Many units can be set to go say 32km/h with a software update. And speedbikes (which can look virtually the same) can go 45km/h, which require a helmet and must be on the car-road, but are often driven as regular e-bikes on bikelanes or the pavement. 2) The 25km/h really can be too fast, already. One must consider that in-city biking typically is done at say 9 to 15km/h, averaging 12km/h. The speed difference between an average cycler and his low (9) or higher-end (15) peers is typically about 3km/h. An e-bike going 25 changes the calculus, now the difference is 13km/h, or double the speed of the regular bike. And that creates a lot of issues. Overtaking is statistically the biggest source of accidents, and it happens way more frequently if the lane is shared by bikes going 12 and 25, rather than all averaging 12. And the act of overtaking is more dangerous too if it's done on a lane which has a large variance in speeds. I'd love to see a limit of 20km/h, and a limit to 50% pedal assist, on bike infrastructure. That keeps the speed differences low, and it reinforces that one must bike, and put in effort. Right now the experience as a biker is that you're sharing a lane with motorised electric scooters, going twice your speed, and doing it by essentially pressing a button. I think electric motorised two-tire vehicles are still a great solution at 25 or 45km/h, but not regulated as bikes, but rather regulated as a scooter. That could mean having to wear a helmet, having to have a (light) license, a license-plate (to allow enforcement of rules), being 18+, riding on a separate lane with traffic going similar speeds.

KingMachiavelli 5y ago

But was the point of the infrastructure built for cyclists or commuters using bikes? In the absence of intentional malice, I don't see why a throttled e-bike user should not be able to use bike lanes and bike paths. Seems like the solution is just a speed limit. If I have to travel a few miles on a standard road before getting to an area with bike paths... I can't really switch to a different bike. But having a electric scooter type bike makes a lot of sense if the purpose is commuting. Cyclists in NY are infamous for being obnoxious/dangerous to pedestrians and even car drivers and they accomplish that without electric bikes.

gnopgnip 5y ago

It helps to put some perspective in when saying they are heavier and more powerful. A typical cyclist can put out around 250w of power for a short duration, a US street legal ebike will do 250-750w. An average American male weighs ~200lbs, a typical mountain bike or cruiser will be 20-25lbs, a commuter type ebike will be 65lbs. A road bike, or road style ebike would be lighter, a cargo bike would be heavier. So an ebike weighs ~15% more overall, but combined with someone pedaling has 2-4x the power of a regular bike. Compared to a Tesla model 3 performance, it weighs 4250lbs, 16x as much, rated for 350kw, 350x the power. Even a Smart car one of the smallest cars in the US weighs ~8x as much and has 60x the power of an ebike.