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Oversight is extremely important for a PA. We had one at one of my old firms charging 10k of personal charges to her boss' cards and then just approving it her

Oversight is extremely important for a PA. We had one at one of my old firms charging 10k of personal charges to her boss' cards and then just approving it herself because she did the invoicing and his approvals. If I recall, she billed a $470 custom tiered birthday cake for her boyfriend to the card and also had her Equinox membership on it. EAs are safer ground and less risk but with PAs they can become too entrenched in personal tasks which tends to breeds resentment and bring on the "fraud triangle" of pressure, opportunity, rationalization.

londons_explore 5y ago
And yet expensing $470 for a custom cake for an important client who's birthday party you have to miss because you're heading up the shareholder meeting may be money very well spent. As long as most of the $470's are well spent, and total value for money is better than someone else could achieve, I don't actually mind who's boyfriend gets a fancy cake. But I do need to have confidence that I'm seeing enough of the picture to know that money is being well spent overall, even if that doesn't apply to every individual dollar.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  WTF? I would absolutely NOT be OK with blatant, unambiguous theft from my PA.
  - cmaggiulli 5y ago
    I would probably be ok with a few $470 cakes here and there… if I was in the position to have a PA that is
  - errantspark 5y ago
    I think most people assume it's okay to for example, use the office printer to print a return slip for a package you're going to mail back on your lunch break. If the volume for your line of work is tens of thousands of pages, maybe printing 470 return slips is just y'know, fine, gets lost in the noise and makes everyone's life easier to just let it happen.
    - mgraczyk 5y ago
      My take is that the difference here that makes this socially acceptable is that there is a large reduction in total cost when the employee uses the office printer. If an employee uses a printer, the cost is the ink and paper. If the employee did it themselves, they would either need to take a special trip to a print shop or invest in a printer themselves. The total cost of the latter is much higher, maybe $5-$10 of the employee's time vs $0.03-$0.05 in ink and paper. We imagine whether the employer would be willing to make this trade (give $0.05 so the employee would gain $5) and assume the employer would, so the "theft" isn't really a theft. On the other hand, buying a $470 cake with your boss's money is no more efficient than paying yourself. It's "just" stealing.
      - FpUser 5y ago
        BS. Either is stealing and your attempt at rationalization does not make it something else. We just tolerate some things and level of tolerance varies greatly. There are bosses who would nail you to the wall should you take a pen with you and I also know bosses who would tolerate that $500 cake taken by PA.
        mgraczyk 5y ago
        I don't think it's as black and white, and I don't think the single dimension of "toleration" works to explain the complexity. Consider napkins at a fast food restaurant. Nobody would say you're "stealing" if you take one napkin and use it to clean your hands after eating. On the other hand, most people would call it "stealing" or at least ethically wrong if you took all the napkins that were available, far more than what you need. In this case, there's more to our ethical intuition than just "stealing" vs "not stealing". Factors include how much you need the napkins, how much you deprive others of the napkins, whether or not the restaurant would be ok with your behavior, whether or not the behavior is a cultural norm, etc.
        andi999 5y ago
        Don't forget electricity theft by charging personal mobile phone. And time theft by posting to a forum during work.
- mornis 5y ago
  That's a really hot take
  - randycupertino 5y ago
    Fraud, schmaud! It's the holidays, for pete's sake!
- Teever 5y ago
  This kind of analysis may make sense with an employee who handles cash like a bartender or a waitress but I'd think twice about applying it to a trusted position like personal assistant.
- randycupertino 5y ago
  It wasn't just 1 $470 cake, it was $10k of personal charges for herself over 6 months including a revolving $250 a month gym membership.
- snowwrestler 5y ago
  Oversight of cash expensing is a basic financial control. Nobody, even the CEO, should be approving their own expensing with no oversight. An assistant pretending to be their own boss, so they can approve their own expenses, is fraud and a clear fireable offense.
  - randycupertino 5y ago
    > Oversight of cash expensing is a basic financial control. Well, yes. Clearly. However, point being, that time and time again, for a Personal Assistant who does home/personal life related tasks (not an EA who is work-related duties), the oversight frequently gets overlooked. Lines get blurred and oversight is lacking. Hence by PAs are often prone to fraud. The CEO of Goldman Sachs had his PA steal over $1.5 million from him before anyone noticed. The Gearbox CEO also has his PA steal $3 million. There are tons of stories like this. https://www.polygon.com/2018/9/30/17920030/randy-pitchford-dallas-grifter-missing-charges https://www.polygon.com/2018/9/30/17920030/randy-pitchford-d... https://i1sglobal.com/2021/03/personal-assistant-stole-more-than-1m-from-ex-wife-of-nba-star-jason-kidd/ https://i1sglobal.com/2021/03/personal-assistant-stole-more-... https://nypost.com/2018/10/13/how-a-charming-imposter-stole-1-3m-in-rare-wine-from-the-ceo-of-goldman-sachs/ https://nypost.com/2018/10/13/how-a-charming-imposter-stole-... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/identity-theft-personal-assistant-jewelry-new-york_n_1313695 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/identity-theft-personal-assis... https://www.thejournal.ie/siobhan-maguire-personal-assistant-sentence-stealing-from-employer-3665515-Oct2017/ https://www.thejournal.ie/siobhan-maguire-personal-assistant... https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2021/02/11/kevin-hart-former-personal-shopper-charged-1-million-theft/6731564002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/202...
sneak 5y ago
Fidelity bonding can mitigate some of the risk here, if the EA is a W2 FTE.
pyuser583 5y ago
I did not know there was a “fraud triangle.” Interesting.
- randycupertino 5y ago
  It's an accounting term, I think I first heard about it in a white-collar crime book. https://www.brumellgroup.com/news/the-fraud-triangle-theory/ https://www.brumellgroup.com/news/the-fraud-triangle-theory/

londons_explore 5y ago

And yet expensing $470 for a custom cake for an important client who's birthday party you have to miss because you're heading up the shareholder meeting may be money very well spent. As long as most of the $470's are well spent, and total value for money is better than someone else could achieve, I don't actually mind who's boyfriend gets a fancy cake. But I do need to have confidence that I'm seeing enough of the picture to know that money is being well spent overall, even if that doesn't apply to every individual dollar.

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
WTF? I would absolutely NOT be OK with blatant, unambiguous theft from my PA.
- cmaggiulli 5y ago
  I would probably be ok with a few $470 cakes here and there… if I was in the position to have a PA that is
- errantspark 5y ago
  I think most people assume it's okay to for example, use the office printer to print a return slip for a package you're going to mail back on your lunch break. If the volume for your line of work is tens of thousands of pages, maybe printing 470 return slips is just y'know, fine, gets lost in the noise and makes everyone's life easier to just let it happen.
  - mgraczyk 5y ago
    My take is that the difference here that makes this socially acceptable is that there is a large reduction in total cost when the employee uses the office printer. If an employee uses a printer, the cost is the ink and paper. If the employee did it themselves, they would either need to take a special trip to a print shop or invest in a printer themselves. The total cost of the latter is much higher, maybe $5-$10 of the employee's time vs $0.03-$0.05 in ink and paper. We imagine whether the employer would be willing to make this trade (give $0.05 so the employee would gain $5) and assume the employer would, so the "theft" isn't really a theft. On the other hand, buying a $470 cake with your boss's money is no more efficient than paying yourself. It's "just" stealing.
    - FpUser 5y ago
      BS. Either is stealing and your attempt at rationalization does not make it something else. We just tolerate some things and level of tolerance varies greatly. There are bosses who would nail you to the wall should you take a pen with you and I also know bosses who would tolerate that $500 cake taken by PA.
      - mgraczyk 5y ago
        I don't think it's as black and white, and I don't think the single dimension of "toleration" works to explain the complexity. Consider napkins at a fast food restaurant. Nobody would say you're "stealing" if you take one napkin and use it to clean your hands after eating. On the other hand, most people would call it "stealing" or at least ethically wrong if you took all the napkins that were available, far more than what you need. In this case, there's more to our ethical intuition than just "stealing" vs "not stealing". Factors include how much you need the napkins, how much you deprive others of the napkins, whether or not the restaurant would be ok with your behavior, whether or not the behavior is a cultural norm, etc.
      - andi999 5y ago
        Don't forget electricity theft by charging personal mobile phone. And time theft by posting to a forum during work.
mornis 5y ago
That's a really hot take
- randycupertino 5y ago
  Fraud, schmaud! It's the holidays, for pete's sake!
Teever 5y ago
This kind of analysis may make sense with an employee who handles cash like a bartender or a waitress but I'd think twice about applying it to a trusted position like personal assistant.
randycupertino 5y ago
It wasn't just 1 $470 cake, it was $10k of personal charges for herself over 6 months including a revolving $250 a month gym membership.
snowwrestler 5y ago
Oversight of cash expensing is a basic financial control. Nobody, even the CEO, should be approving their own expensing with no oversight. An assistant pretending to be their own boss, so they can approve their own expenses, is fraud and a clear fireable offense.
- randycupertino 5y ago
  > Oversight of cash expensing is a basic financial control. Well, yes. Clearly. However, point being, that time and time again, for a Personal Assistant who does home/personal life related tasks (not an EA who is work-related duties), the oversight frequently gets overlooked. Lines get blurred and oversight is lacking. Hence by PAs are often prone to fraud. The CEO of Goldman Sachs had his PA steal over $1.5 million from him before anyone noticed. The Gearbox CEO also has his PA steal $3 million. There are tons of stories like this. https://www.polygon.com/2018/9/30/17920030/randy-pitchford-dallas-grifter-missing-charges https://www.polygon.com/2018/9/30/17920030/randy-pitchford-d... https://i1sglobal.com/2021/03/personal-assistant-stole-more-than-1m-from-ex-wife-of-nba-star-jason-kidd/ https://i1sglobal.com/2021/03/personal-assistant-stole-more-... https://nypost.com/2018/10/13/how-a-charming-imposter-stole-1-3m-in-rare-wine-from-the-ceo-of-goldman-sachs/ https://nypost.com/2018/10/13/how-a-charming-imposter-stole-... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/identity-theft-personal-assistant-jewelry-new-york_n_1313695 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/identity-theft-personal-assis... https://www.thejournal.ie/siobhan-maguire-personal-assistant-sentence-stealing-from-employer-3665515-Oct2017/ https://www.thejournal.ie/siobhan-maguire-personal-assistant... https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2021/02/11/kevin-hart-former-personal-shopper-charged-1-million-theft/6731564002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/202...

sneak 5y ago

Fidelity bonding can mitigate some of the risk here, if the EA is a W2 FTE.

pyuser583 5y ago

I did not know there was a “fraud triangle.” Interesting.

randycupertino 5y ago
It's an accounting term, I think I first heard about it in a white-collar crime book. https://www.brumellgroup.com/news/the-fraud-triangle-theory/ https://www.brumellgroup.com/news/the-fraud-triangle-theory/