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Why Some Dads Don’t Take Leave: They Think They’ll Be Punished

23 points by JonathanBuchh 5y ago

29336424 5y ago
There is only one solution to this, and it’s mandatory paid parental leave for both parents. We already have a system in place for this for jury duty and this is more important. Far more important.
- bell-cot 5y ago
  Obvious counter-move by a company that actually punishes employees taking paternity / maternity leave - punish employees having children.
  - musicale 5y ago
    Pretty sure they're already on it.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  At least in Spain, when fathers were given the same leave as mothers, they opted to have fewer children. It makes sense of course; you want less of something when you’re fully exposed to the costs (in this case, the child care work requires while on leave) of that thing. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/paid-paternity-leave-study-spain-men-fewer-children https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/paid-paternity...
AstroDogCatcher 5y ago
Evidence from the other half of the population suggests they are correct. Mandatory leave is probably going to be deemed too heavy handed, but much more non-transferable use-it-or-lose-it time off should be available so that people feel inclined to use at least some of it.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Suppose four identically skilled and driven people: Adam, Betty, Charlie, and Debby all started their careers at the same firm and time. Adam and Betty each took four months of parental leave for each of their two kids while Charlie and Debby continuously worked on their career. The company eagerly and warmly welcomed Adam and Betty back each time (as is proper). At three years in, it would seem a little weird if Charlie and Debby didn’t make more progress in their career than Adam and Betty across that time period. They’ve got almost 30% more experience on the job.
  - llampx 5y ago
    For knowledge workers, proficiency doesn't go up linearly with time on the job.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      There are very few workers for whom it's linear. For most knowledge workers, proficiency is monotonic at least.
    - listenallyall 5y ago
      Continuing the hypothetical situation, let's say the company closes one major deal per month. The people who did not go on leave participated in 8 more deals. It's not discrimination, just being present should improve their future job prospects. Every deal means more contact with customers (who might later want to poach them), more likely they participated in some last-minute crunch time projects under the boss's eye, more unique circumstances/negotiations they had to navigate. Of course, if they are incompetent, more chance for that to be revealed as well.
      - AstroDogCatcher 5y ago
        I don't really disagree with your point, but personal experience tells me that inherent competence and motivation have far more impact on the value an employee can deliver than raw experience (on the timescales of weeks or months, which is the point we are focused on here).
1cvmask 5y ago
Nothing happened to Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg when he took parental leave during the largest supply chain bottlenecks in the ports and trucker shortage in recent memory. The newspaper’s didn’t even mention it. In fact his Joe Biden had to personally intervene and do Pete’s job. Pete can be an inspiration for the dads who are afraid to take a leave, even in the midst of a storm, and shows there is no career penalty to it. https://www.newsweek.com/live-updates-president-biden-shipping-port-la-1638630 https://www.newsweek.com/live-updates-president-biden-shippi... https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pete-buttigieg-defends-paternity-leave-supply-chain-issues/story?id=80670846 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pete-buttigieg-defends-pater...
- kbelder 5y ago
  There absolutely WILL be a career penalty for it in his case. It just won't rear it's head until 2024.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    I think it’ll be hard to trace any gains or losses in 2024 back to that decision when 500 other far more consequential things will happen (some good, some bad) between now and then.
- rp1 5y ago
  I’m just curious, why do you feel the need to bring up politics in this comment section? Are you trying to stop people from talking about parental leave? How is the choice of a single politician relevant here?
  - 1cvmask 5y ago
    Regarding the issue at hand and the associated stigma of it, politicians often try to lead by example as he stated so himself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bully_pulpit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bully_pulpit
- listenallyall 5y ago
  You're right that nothing happened -- supply chain problems only got worse. Buttigieg became the poster boy for out of touch, incompetence, failing up, promoted beyond ability, etc.
rp1 5y ago
I’m taking paternity leave now and it’s so great and rewarding. As the article mentions, caring for a child is a skill that needs to be learned over multiple weeks. It also takes a while for a baby to be comfortable with a new caregiver. If a man doesn’t take that time, then it’s really unfair to the mother who now has so much more responsibility on their shoulders. It’s sad to me that the push for profit in so many industries has driven margins so low that companies can’t survive if workers take leave. I guess that’s ruthless capitalism for you.
- listenallyall 5y ago
  It's not the "push for profits" that reduces margins, it's normal competition. If an industry is making someone rich, other people will notice and jump in. Some industries, like airlines or chip making have high barriers to entry and can keep a lot of competitive threats at bay. Catering, which the interviewee works in, essentially has zero barriers, further, because it is labor intensive, most catering companies are quite small and restricted to a local area. Hard to tell these caterers (perhaps the original "gig economy" jobs) that they need to continue paying people who aren't available for catering jobs, regardless of circumstances.
v3rt3x 5y ago
Or they just don’t want to… I love my kids but I would prefer work to the tedium of dealing with small children or an infant any day. Most men I know just aren’t wired with the ability to tolerate child care. The last few years of “wokeness” can’t undo a few hundred thousand years of evolutionary biology.
- blacksmith_tb 5y ago
  Or everyone struggles with childcare, men and women both, but men manage to avoid it more in our culture. Obviously there's some biology involved (men can't breastfeed, but bottles are a thing). Doesn't seem crazy that anyone might worry they'll be punished by their bosses for "slacking off" taking care of their kids though, it's pretty well-documented that it certainly takes a bite out of many women's careers[1]. 1: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/women-children-earnings-1.5079732 https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/women-children-earnings-1.5...
- lkschubert8 5y ago
  Im really struggling to wrap my head around "not being wired for child care". We live in a world full of things that we as humans are obviously not "wired" for as we have created them in the past few hundred years, but the line gets drawn at child care for men?
- talentedcoin 5y ago
  Pardon my saying so, but what a bunch of horseshit. Don’t blame “evolutionary biology” for your own preferences or those of people around you. Source: am a dad (on parental leave) who loves spending time with his young kids.
  - v3rt3x 5y ago
    Unlike new mothers, there is no sound biological reason for fathers to require extended paternity leave. Throughout human history, fathers have had an imperative to provide for their families and generally couldn’t afford the opportunity cost of taking an extended paternity leave. If there was a biological reason for this, it would have become culturally enshrined a long time ago there would be no debate on its merits. This a “nice to have” not a “need to have”. Our needs fundamentally arise from biology and thus have evolutionary origins. Saying otherwise because it isn’t convenient is “horseshit”.

23 points by JonathanBuchh 5y ago

There is only one solution to this, and it’s mandatory paid parental leave for both parents. We already have a system in place for this for jury duty and this is more important. Far more important.

bell-cot 5y ago
Obvious counter-move by a company that actually punishes employees taking paternity / maternity leave - punish employees having children.
- musicale 5y ago
  Pretty sure they're already on it.
toomuchtodo 5y ago
At least in Spain, when fathers were given the same leave as mothers, they opted to have fewer children. It makes sense of course; you want less of something when you’re fully exposed to the costs (in this case, the child care work requires while on leave) of that thing. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/paid-paternity-leave-study-spain-men-fewer-children https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/paid-paternity...

AstroDogCatcher 5y ago

Evidence from the other half of the population suggests they are correct. Mandatory leave is probably going to be deemed too heavy handed, but much more non-transferable use-it-or-lose-it time off should be available so that people feel inclined to use at least some of it.

sokoloff 5y ago
Suppose four identically skilled and driven people: Adam, Betty, Charlie, and Debby all started their careers at the same firm and time. Adam and Betty each took four months of parental leave for each of their two kids while Charlie and Debby continuously worked on their career. The company eagerly and warmly welcomed Adam and Betty back each time (as is proper). At three years in, it would seem a little weird if Charlie and Debby didn’t make more progress in their career than Adam and Betty across that time period. They’ve got almost 30% more experience on the job.
- llampx 5y ago
  For knowledge workers, proficiency doesn't go up linearly with time on the job.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    There are very few workers for whom it's linear. For most knowledge workers, proficiency is monotonic at least.
  - listenallyall 5y ago
    Continuing the hypothetical situation, let's say the company closes one major deal per month. The people who did not go on leave participated in 8 more deals. It's not discrimination, just being present should improve their future job prospects. Every deal means more contact with customers (who might later want to poach them), more likely they participated in some last-minute crunch time projects under the boss's eye, more unique circumstances/negotiations they had to navigate. Of course, if they are incompetent, more chance for that to be revealed as well.
    - AstroDogCatcher 5y ago
      I don't really disagree with your point, but personal experience tells me that inherent competence and motivation have far more impact on the value an employee can deliver than raw experience (on the timescales of weeks or months, which is the point we are focused on here).

1cvmask 5y ago

Nothing happened to Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg when he took parental leave during the largest supply chain bottlenecks in the ports and trucker shortage in recent memory. The newspaper’s didn’t even mention it. In fact his Joe Biden had to personally intervene and do Pete’s job. Pete can be an inspiration for the dads who are afraid to take a leave, even in the midst of a storm, and shows there is no career penalty to it. https://www.newsweek.com/live-updates-president-biden-shipping-port-la-1638630 https://www.newsweek.com/live-updates-president-biden-shippi... https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pete-buttigieg-defends-paternity-leave-supply-chain-issues/story?id=80670846 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pete-buttigieg-defends-pater...

kbelder 5y ago
There absolutely WILL be a career penalty for it in his case. It just won't rear it's head until 2024.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I think it’ll be hard to trace any gains or losses in 2024 back to that decision when 500 other far more consequential things will happen (some good, some bad) between now and then.
rp1 5y ago
I’m just curious, why do you feel the need to bring up politics in this comment section? Are you trying to stop people from talking about parental leave? How is the choice of a single politician relevant here?
- 1cvmask 5y ago
  Regarding the issue at hand and the associated stigma of it, politicians often try to lead by example as he stated so himself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bully_pulpit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bully_pulpit
listenallyall 5y ago
You're right that nothing happened -- supply chain problems only got worse. Buttigieg became the poster boy for out of touch, incompetence, failing up, promoted beyond ability, etc.

rp1 5y ago

I’m taking paternity leave now and it’s so great and rewarding. As the article mentions, caring for a child is a skill that needs to be learned over multiple weeks. It also takes a while for a baby to be comfortable with a new caregiver. If a man doesn’t take that time, then it’s really unfair to the mother who now has so much more responsibility on their shoulders. It’s sad to me that the push for profit in so many industries has driven margins so low that companies can’t survive if workers take leave. I guess that’s ruthless capitalism for you.

listenallyall 5y ago
It's not the "push for profits" that reduces margins, it's normal competition. If an industry is making someone rich, other people will notice and jump in. Some industries, like airlines or chip making have high barriers to entry and can keep a lot of competitive threats at bay. Catering, which the interviewee works in, essentially has zero barriers, further, because it is labor intensive, most catering companies are quite small and restricted to a local area. Hard to tell these caterers (perhaps the original "gig economy" jobs) that they need to continue paying people who aren't available for catering jobs, regardless of circumstances.

v3rt3x 5y ago

Or they just don’t want to… I love my kids but I would prefer work to the tedium of dealing with small children or an infant any day. Most men I know just aren’t wired with the ability to tolerate child care. The last few years of “wokeness” can’t undo a few hundred thousand years of evolutionary biology.

blacksmith_tb 5y ago
Or everyone struggles with childcare, men and women both, but men manage to avoid it more in our culture. Obviously there's some biology involved (men can't breastfeed, but bottles are a thing). Doesn't seem crazy that anyone might worry they'll be punished by their bosses for "slacking off" taking care of their kids though, it's pretty well-documented that it certainly takes a bite out of many women's careers[1]. 1: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/women-children-earnings-1.5079732 https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/women-children-earnings-1.5...
lkschubert8 5y ago
Im really struggling to wrap my head around "not being wired for child care". We live in a world full of things that we as humans are obviously not "wired" for as we have created them in the past few hundred years, but the line gets drawn at child care for men?
talentedcoin 5y ago
Pardon my saying so, but what a bunch of horseshit. Don’t blame “evolutionary biology” for your own preferences or those of people around you. Source: am a dad (on parental leave) who loves spending time with his young kids.
- v3rt3x 5y ago
  Unlike new mothers, there is no sound biological reason for fathers to require extended paternity leave. Throughout human history, fathers have had an imperative to provide for their families and generally couldn’t afford the opportunity cost of taking an extended paternity leave. If there was a biological reason for this, it would have become culturally enshrined a long time ago there would be no debate on its merits. This a “nice to have” not a “need to have”. Our needs fundamentally arise from biology and thus have evolutionary origins. Saying otherwise because it isn’t convenient is “horseshit”.