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Can you provide citation for this? Also how they are different from any other tech company? My MacBooks security keys are not trivial to acquire because they a

Can you provide citation for this? Also how they are different from any other tech company? My MacBooks security keys are not trivial to acquire because they aren’t in icloud. In some of the countries in five eyes nations, you don’t have a choice about cooperating or not. But what do 5 eyes have to do with Chinese users?

smoldesu 5y ago
> Can you provide citation for this? Apple's cooperation with PRISM[0] is well documented[1], but if you want to find the particularly damning details you'll need to do your own research. The dust has settled since the Snowden revelations, and many mentions of the program have been sterilized. > Also how they are different from any other tech company? It's not. But the claim that Apple puts extra effort into protecting you from your government is comical, especially if you live in a first-world country. It's also a false dichotomy, since there are definitely more secure devices you could be using. They're just not being manufactured by the largest, most valuable companies in the world. > My MacBooks security keys are not trivial to acquire because they aren’t in icloud. That is indeed what the US would like you to think. It's no coincidence that Macbooks force you to use NIST-designed crypto for all of their services though, and if you've got a healthy degree of skepticism towards the same institute that backdoored Dual_EC_DRBG, it's safe to assume the rest of these ciphers are also vulnerable to differential cryptanalysis. Or just take what the NSA says at face value, that certainly won't cause any problems in the future. /s > But what do 5 eyes have to do with Chinese users? Also nothing, they have their own bespoke surveillance program since China cannot cooperate with the US like Britain or Canada can. In lieu of being able to break their encryption, China demanded that all of Apple's domestic data get stored on domestic servers. While Google, Microsoft, Yahoo and every other big tech company shied away from that kind of compliance with a known abuser of human rights, Apple happily complied with the request. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants... [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20130609061546/https://www.cultofmac.com/230358/everything-you-need-to-know-about-apple-and-prism/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130609061546/https://www.culto...
- jsnell 5y ago
  > Apple's cooperation with PRISM[0] is well documented[1] Neither of your links documents any kind of cooperation, let alone documenting it well.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  I shouldn't be arguing with the trolls - but in case anyone was curious about these (nonsense) allegations: Your links do not document cooperation with PRISM other than that the NSA believed they got information from them, which is very different. For all we know, it could have been the NSA abusing an API endpoint. Also, it said that it got lots of stuff like email, address, and so on when all of these services were combined which made it PRISM. For all we know, it could have been checking the emails from Apple (because of FaceTime), getting address from Facebook, using address to look up other info on LinkedIn, and so forth. If anything, PRISM shows NSA abuse of services more than intentional compliance. > definitely more secure devices you could be using. I hate that I have to say this, but Linux phones are not more secure. They do have a company they don't phone-home to, but if a Linux phone was found on the side of the road, I have no doubt that the NSA would find a way in (unlike the iPhone, which as lately as the Rittenhouse trial, the latest model has not been cracked and the government ultimately struck a deal with the defense for a PIN code). Linux phones are only secure by obscurity in that less research has been done on them and they are less common - but if government agencies were (or are) putting some research cash into them, I would not be surprised if they burst open from a million attacks that iPhones and Androids have found and fixed over the last decade. > It's no coincidence that MacBooks force you to use NIST-designed crypto Stop being conspiratorial - almost everyone, including many companies outside the US, use Curve25519 or P-256, and a big reason why is that the algorithm is very fast to calculate while being reasonably secure, which is a plus for fast encryption. Also, nobody has seriously alleged that Curve25519 is backdoor, unlike Dual_EC_DRBG which was suspect almost immediately. Also, NIST did not invent Dual_EC_DRBG. The NSA did and submitted it to NIST as a standard which NIST reluctantly accepted. > Shied away from that kind of compliance with a known abuser of human rights Yes - but Microsoft, Google, etc still make their phones in the same factories, and the reason they didn't hand over the server keys was because they don't really offer any services in China. Google doesn't work in China, and Microsoft's involvement is minor and China doesn't care because Windows doesn't encrypt data unless you have the Pro version and it's switched on. Also, your bias is showing in your use of Apple "happily" complying. How do you know that? I can go on.
gjsman-1000 5y ago
You shouldn't argue with @smoldesu, he has a history of trying to troll and spread FUD about Apple at every possible opportunity, even on completely unrelated topics. It's so ridiculous, a complaint about it is the #1 result on Google if you type "smoldesu" in. They also are not typically the most factual of complaints but they aren't interested in corrections. Beats me why the mods haven't sent warnings.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Thank you for your crack forensic work, this guy seems like a really reprehensible character, it's a wonder that his throwaway troll account has accrued so much karma and even regularly commented on a variety of topics to avoid arousing suspicion. After some more OSINT (open source intelligence for my fellow Redditors out there) we even discovered that he had accounts on other sites, where he also espoused original opinions and fresh takes. We'll do our best to stamp out any intellectually stimulating conversations in the future to ensure that Apple threads don't accidentally cause readers to think about the product they use.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    Let me paraphrase your own quote: ”Please stop posting these long-winded [hate] essays every couple days. It would be one thing if this was [Reddit], but the slimyness and dishonesty here is yet another brick in the wall of non-fungible sketchiness.” A reminder to you that it is against Hacker News rules to do any ideological warfare, “trolling”, or bad-faith commentary.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      The only one provoking people here is you. I made an on-topic comment, and you decided to develop it into a personal attack. Luckily for the both of us, I really don't care what you think of me, so you can spin your wheels complaining about my rhetoric for as long as you like. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. Have fun editing your comments and recontextualizing as you please, but I'm done here.

smoldesu 5y ago

> Can you provide citation for this? Apple's cooperation with PRISM[0] is well documented[1], but if you want to find the particularly damning details you'll need to do your own research. The dust has settled since the Snowden revelations, and many mentions of the program have been sterilized. > Also how they are different from any other tech company? It's not. But the claim that Apple puts extra effort into protecting you from your government is comical, especially if you live in a first-world country. It's also a false dichotomy, since there are definitely more secure devices you could be using. They're just not being manufactured by the largest, most valuable companies in the world. > My MacBooks security keys are not trivial to acquire because they aren’t in icloud. That is indeed what the US would like you to think. It's no coincidence that Macbooks force you to use NIST-designed crypto for all of their services though, and if you've got a healthy degree of skepticism towards the same institute that backdoored Dual_EC_DRBG, it's safe to assume the rest of these ciphers are also vulnerable to differential cryptanalysis. Or just take what the NSA says at face value, that certainly won't cause any problems in the future. /s > But what do 5 eyes have to do with Chinese users? Also nothing, they have their own bespoke surveillance program since China cannot cooperate with the US like Britain or Canada can. In lieu of being able to break their encryption, China demanded that all of Apple's domestic data get stored on domestic servers. While Google, Microsoft, Yahoo and every other big tech company shied away from that kind of compliance with a known abuser of human rights, Apple happily complied with the request. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants... [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20130609061546/https://www.cultofmac.com/230358/everything-you-need-to-know-about-apple-and-prism/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130609061546/https://www.culto...

jsnell 5y ago
> Apple's cooperation with PRISM[0] is well documented[1] Neither of your links documents any kind of cooperation, let alone documenting it well.
gjsman-1000 5y ago
I shouldn't be arguing with the trolls - but in case anyone was curious about these (nonsense) allegations: Your links do not document cooperation with PRISM other than that the NSA believed they got information from them, which is very different. For all we know, it could have been the NSA abusing an API endpoint. Also, it said that it got lots of stuff like email, address, and so on when all of these services were combined which made it PRISM. For all we know, it could have been checking the emails from Apple (because of FaceTime), getting address from Facebook, using address to look up other info on LinkedIn, and so forth. If anything, PRISM shows NSA abuse of services more than intentional compliance. > definitely more secure devices you could be using. I hate that I have to say this, but Linux phones are not more secure. They do have a company they don't phone-home to, but if a Linux phone was found on the side of the road, I have no doubt that the NSA would find a way in (unlike the iPhone, which as lately as the Rittenhouse trial, the latest model has not been cracked and the government ultimately struck a deal with the defense for a PIN code). Linux phones are only secure by obscurity in that less research has been done on them and they are less common - but if government agencies were (or are) putting some research cash into them, I would not be surprised if they burst open from a million attacks that iPhones and Androids have found and fixed over the last decade. > It's no coincidence that MacBooks force you to use NIST-designed crypto Stop being conspiratorial - almost everyone, including many companies outside the US, use Curve25519 or P-256, and a big reason why is that the algorithm is very fast to calculate while being reasonably secure, which is a plus for fast encryption. Also, nobody has seriously alleged that Curve25519 is backdoor, unlike Dual_EC_DRBG which was suspect almost immediately. Also, NIST did not invent Dual_EC_DRBG. The NSA did and submitted it to NIST as a standard which NIST reluctantly accepted. > Shied away from that kind of compliance with a known abuser of human rights Yes - but Microsoft, Google, etc still make their phones in the same factories, and the reason they didn't hand over the server keys was because they don't really offer any services in China. Google doesn't work in China, and Microsoft's involvement is minor and China doesn't care because Windows doesn't encrypt data unless you have the Pro version and it's switched on. Also, your bias is showing in your use of Apple "happily" complying. How do you know that? I can go on.

gjsman-1000 5y ago

You shouldn't argue with @smoldesu, he has a history of trying to troll and spread FUD about Apple at every possible opportunity, even on completely unrelated topics. It's so ridiculous, a complaint about it is the #1 result on Google if you type "smoldesu" in. They also are not typically the most factual of complaints but they aren't interested in corrections. Beats me why the mods haven't sent warnings.

smoldesu 5y ago
Thank you for your crack forensic work, this guy seems like a really reprehensible character, it's a wonder that his throwaway troll account has accrued so much karma and even regularly commented on a variety of topics to avoid arousing suspicion. After some more OSINT (open source intelligence for my fellow Redditors out there) we even discovered that he had accounts on other sites, where he also espoused original opinions and fresh takes. We'll do our best to stamp out any intellectually stimulating conversations in the future to ensure that Apple threads don't accidentally cause readers to think about the product they use.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  Let me paraphrase your own quote: ”Please stop posting these long-winded [hate] essays every couple days. It would be one thing if this was [Reddit], but the slimyness and dishonesty here is yet another brick in the wall of non-fungible sketchiness.” A reminder to you that it is against Hacker News rules to do any ideological warfare, “trolling”, or bad-faith commentary.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    The only one provoking people here is you. I made an on-topic comment, and you decided to develop it into a personal attack. Luckily for the both of us, I really don't care what you think of me, so you can spin your wheels complaining about my rhetoric for as long as you like. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. Have fun editing your comments and recontextualizing as you please, but I'm done here.