5 ms·

> I am not a fan of Ayn Rand's philosophy I've been thinking about this lately, and I'm not sure where I stand. I'm against book burning, but I feel like there

by Cpoll 5y ago

> I am not a fan of Ayn Rand's philosophy I've been thinking about this lately, and I'm not sure where I stand. I'm against book burning, but I feel like there are also problems with unchecked dissemination of ideas. I think this is flawed logic in a few ways, but I'll put it down anyway: 1. Is there a difference between an undiscerning student (i.e. young, impressionable, hasn't been taught critical thinking, doesn't have sufficient experience to evaluate the validity of what they're learning) reading Ayn Rand on their own and being taught Ayn Rand by a teacher? 2. Would you consider it acceptable to teach Rand's novels non-critically as part of the curriculum (heck, why not, there are more than a few Senators that cite her books as inspiration). The problem I run up against is how do you "objectively" decide which books to restrict. As you said, "school libraries curated by legislators with an agenda seem like a Really Bad Idea," but everyone has some sort of agenda. Everyone thinks it's obvious what should and shouldn't be taught in school, but of course it's not the same "obvious" for everyone.

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
Frankly? The best is when a child can read Ayn Rand and then be in a safe enough environment where they can discuss the ideas with adults who can greatly contextualize the discussion around that piece of literature.
- Cpoll 5y ago
  I'm completely in agreement. I think I danced around this in my post. The main things that bother me, in general: 1. Undiscerning student (i.e. young, impressionable, hasn't been taught critical thinking, doesn't have sufficient experience to evaluate the validity of what they're learning). 2. Things taught non-critically. I think this even applies to the "obvious" stuff like algebra and heliocentrism. My experience with public schooling was that there was too much rote memorization and appeal to authority and not enough "learning." If either of those are fixed (and I think they go hand-in-hand) I don't care if the curriculum/school library has Rand, an unannotated Mein Kampf, or $insert_book_promoting_an_agenda.
  - kbenson 5y ago
    > Undiscerning student (i.e. young, impressionable, hasn't been taught critical thinking, doesn't have sufficient experience to evaluate the validity of what they're learning). Ideally there would be an adult figure in all children's lives to fill this role. If nobody else, their parents or other adult figures (and yes, there are cases where there are no adults, but we can't make societal decisions on the norm based on the the edge cases). I can't help that most the adults that complain about their children getting access to ideas they don't like are those adults that don't bother to talk to their children about their views and ideas and know to challenge them on ideas that are poorly thought out. If you ignore your child's interests for years and then are surprised to find out they have completely opposite views from you that you disagree with, the problem is not the literature they read, it's your lack of involvement in the formation of their ideas. If you (the general you) are involved and your child has views you disagree with but you can't provide compelling arguments to make them change their mind, at a minimum you should also be looking at your own views to see how well they stand up and not assume your own infallibility. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but don't expect that you're always right when you might be espousing the equivalent of 1+1=3 and rightly getting told to shove it. We aren't factories pumping out clones, we're creating people, and people have their own views. The best you can do is try to help them avoid the pitfalls.
shkkmo 5y ago
How do you teach students critical thinking if the very works that require critical thinking are not available to these kids in the places where they have access to teachers? To me if there are "dangerous ideas" that need contextualization, those are the very books that need to be in the school curriculum.
pram 5y ago
Having personally read some of Rand’s fiction as a teen (from my high school library no less!) I think you’d be hard pressed to find a reason to “ban” them. The narrative in Anthem, for example, is so hilariously over the top I’m not sure what the argument would be. It’s a Pol Pot “Year Zero” style civilization, and the randian superman subverts the established collectivist order by single handedly reinventing the lightbulb in a sewer. Frankly anyone would be giving it more credibility than it deserves by saying it contains dangerous ideas.
- Cpoll 5y ago
  I really had Atlas Shrugged in mind, which is convincing enough to regularly show up on Republican booklists (and AFAIR at least one Supreme Court judge) and has all sorts of (my opinion) problematic views on ethical egoism and the like. > hilariously over the top These days I'm not sure anything can be so over-the-top that no-one will take it seriously.
  - jbay808 5y ago
    Well, I'm glad to have read Atlas Shrugged, although I didn't find it philosophically convincing. It would be very frustrating to not be able to read it and just be stuck wondering what the Republicans seem to cite as an important text for understanding their worldview.
    - analog31 5y ago
      I think even Rand was aware of its limitation, which is why the book has an essentially magical ending -- the heroine arrives in utopia by accident when her plane crashes there. But having to reveal the actual process of getting there is precisely the failure of utopian ideologies.
      - oliv__ 5y ago
        What? Her landing in "utopia" is not nearly close to the ending, nor is it magical: at all times the heroine has the option to voluntarily join this utopia and she consciously chooses to remain in the "outside world" to fight its demise. And she doesn't magically crash there, the actual process of her getting there is narrated in what is probably a good 30 pages. Using an analogy from a false representation of the plot to imply that the author intentionally recognizes flaws with her philosophy is definitely not the most objective review of this book, to put it nicely. Have you even read the book?
throwaway2077 5y ago
book burning is just one manifestation of restricting the freedom of thought and expression, and it sounds you aren't against that.
- Cpoll 5y ago
  Fair point, and I don't have a good counter-argument. I think my problem, if anything, isn't that there's an excess of freedom of thought and expression so much as there's not enough counter-thought and counter-expression. So my shaky position is stuck somewhere between what I've identified as the two evils: Book burning, and the uncritical dissemination and condoning of problematic ideas. (I'm aware there's a further problem here because I'm the one deeming things "problematic"). I also think I picked the wrong place to have this conversation. After all, TFA isn't talking about Ayn Rand, it's talking about "opposition to LGBTQIA material, the history of racism, and material that may cause discomfort to readers." These aren't things I would typically label as "problematic."
  - esyir 5y ago
    It's the same situation, but you're fine with one case because you agree with it. That's the fundamental problem.
dsr_ 5y ago
I have never run up against problems caused by people reading too widely. I have frequently seen problems caused by people who didn't read enough.
- edgyquant 5y ago
  I know what you mean by this but when I hear it leads me to be believe that written language is inefficient since a large number of people find reading, even subjects they’re somewhat interested in, boring.
  - hulitu 5y ago
    Well, not all writers are able to clearly express their ideas. And going into a bookstore is an exercise in masochism, most of the books are so low quality that it is a shame for the trees that they were sacrificed for such garbage.
  - dsr_ 5y ago
    Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap.
- openfuture 5y ago
  Errr.. reading too widely is a well known problem called "analysis paralysis" or "procrastination" and there are several other labels. (Curious!) people who "don't read enough" are great to have around the ones who read too much, from my pov problems stem from these groups being unwilling to work together.
  - dsr_ 5y ago
    "analysis paralysis" isn't caused by reading too widely. It's a form of executive function disorder, either situational or ongoing, where making a choice is aborted by incomplete evaluation of the available options. Your mind assigns an infinite penalty and non-zero chance of failure, and that blocks consideration of actual chances of success. One of the effective solutions is to construct a risk table, in which you list out: - each option - the costs to perform the option - the likelihood of success of the option - the value of success via the option - the penalty of failure via the option - the cost to ameliorate failure of the option And you never assign a 0 or infinite value to any of those factors; a range of .05 to .99 is usually appropriate. For binary choices, this can sometimes be short-circuited by flipping a coin and asking yourself if this feels worse than the alternative.
throwaway39203 5y ago
IMO - As a child or teenager you try out different personalities, ideas, etc, then look back, say "what was I thinking", and learn a bit about how your own mind works. Better then, when consequences are small for you and everyone else, than to delay it until adulthood.

by Cpoll 5y ago

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago

Frankly? The best is when a child can read Ayn Rand and then be in a safe enough environment where they can discuss the ideas with adults who can greatly contextualize the discussion around that piece of literature.

Cpoll 5y ago
I'm completely in agreement. I think I danced around this in my post. The main things that bother me, in general: 1. Undiscerning student (i.e. young, impressionable, hasn't been taught critical thinking, doesn't have sufficient experience to evaluate the validity of what they're learning). 2. Things taught non-critically. I think this even applies to the "obvious" stuff like algebra and heliocentrism. My experience with public schooling was that there was too much rote memorization and appeal to authority and not enough "learning." If either of those are fixed (and I think they go hand-in-hand) I don't care if the curriculum/school library has Rand, an unannotated Mein Kampf, or $insert_book_promoting_an_agenda.
- kbenson 5y ago
  > Undiscerning student (i.e. young, impressionable, hasn't been taught critical thinking, doesn't have sufficient experience to evaluate the validity of what they're learning). Ideally there would be an adult figure in all children's lives to fill this role. If nobody else, their parents or other adult figures (and yes, there are cases where there are no adults, but we can't make societal decisions on the norm based on the the edge cases). I can't help that most the adults that complain about their children getting access to ideas they don't like are those adults that don't bother to talk to their children about their views and ideas and know to challenge them on ideas that are poorly thought out. If you ignore your child's interests for years and then are surprised to find out they have completely opposite views from you that you disagree with, the problem is not the literature they read, it's your lack of involvement in the formation of their ideas. If you (the general you) are involved and your child has views you disagree with but you can't provide compelling arguments to make them change their mind, at a minimum you should also be looking at your own views to see how well they stand up and not assume your own infallibility. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but don't expect that you're always right when you might be espousing the equivalent of 1+1=3 and rightly getting told to shove it. We aren't factories pumping out clones, we're creating people, and people have their own views. The best you can do is try to help them avoid the pitfalls.

shkkmo 5y ago

How do you teach students critical thinking if the very works that require critical thinking are not available to these kids in the places where they have access to teachers? To me if there are "dangerous ideas" that need contextualization, those are the very books that need to be in the school curriculum.

pram 5y ago

Having personally read some of Rand’s fiction as a teen (from my high school library no less!) I think you’d be hard pressed to find a reason to “ban” them. The narrative in Anthem, for example, is so hilariously over the top I’m not sure what the argument would be. It’s a Pol Pot “Year Zero” style civilization, and the randian superman subverts the established collectivist order by single handedly reinventing the lightbulb in a sewer. Frankly anyone would be giving it more credibility than it deserves by saying it contains dangerous ideas.

Cpoll 5y ago
I really had Atlas Shrugged in mind, which is convincing enough to regularly show up on Republican booklists (and AFAIR at least one Supreme Court judge) and has all sorts of (my opinion) problematic views on ethical egoism and the like. > hilariously over the top These days I'm not sure anything can be so over-the-top that no-one will take it seriously.
- jbay808 5y ago
  Well, I'm glad to have read Atlas Shrugged, although I didn't find it philosophically convincing. It would be very frustrating to not be able to read it and just be stuck wondering what the Republicans seem to cite as an important text for understanding their worldview.
  - analog31 5y ago
    I think even Rand was aware of its limitation, which is why the book has an essentially magical ending -- the heroine arrives in utopia by accident when her plane crashes there. But having to reveal the actual process of getting there is precisely the failure of utopian ideologies.
    - oliv__ 5y ago
      What? Her landing in "utopia" is not nearly close to the ending, nor is it magical: at all times the heroine has the option to voluntarily join this utopia and she consciously chooses to remain in the "outside world" to fight its demise. And she doesn't magically crash there, the actual process of her getting there is narrated in what is probably a good 30 pages. Using an analogy from a false representation of the plot to imply that the author intentionally recognizes flaws with her philosophy is definitely not the most objective review of this book, to put it nicely. Have you even read the book?

throwaway2077 5y ago

book burning is just one manifestation of restricting the freedom of thought and expression, and it sounds you aren't against that.

Cpoll 5y ago
Fair point, and I don't have a good counter-argument. I think my problem, if anything, isn't that there's an excess of freedom of thought and expression so much as there's not enough counter-thought and counter-expression. So my shaky position is stuck somewhere between what I've identified as the two evils: Book burning, and the uncritical dissemination and condoning of problematic ideas. (I'm aware there's a further problem here because I'm the one deeming things "problematic"). I also think I picked the wrong place to have this conversation. After all, TFA isn't talking about Ayn Rand, it's talking about "opposition to LGBTQIA material, the history of racism, and material that may cause discomfort to readers." These aren't things I would typically label as "problematic."
- esyir 5y ago
  It's the same situation, but you're fine with one case because you agree with it. That's the fundamental problem.

dsr_ 5y ago

I have never run up against problems caused by people reading too widely. I have frequently seen problems caused by people who didn't read enough.

edgyquant 5y ago
I know what you mean by this but when I hear it leads me to be believe that written language is inefficient since a large number of people find reading, even subjects they’re somewhat interested in, boring.
- hulitu 5y ago
  Well, not all writers are able to clearly express their ideas. And going into a bookstore is an exercise in masochism, most of the books are so low quality that it is a shame for the trees that they were sacrificed for such garbage.
- dsr_ 5y ago
  Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap.
openfuture 5y ago
Errr.. reading too widely is a well known problem called "analysis paralysis" or "procrastination" and there are several other labels. (Curious!) people who "don't read enough" are great to have around the ones who read too much, from my pov problems stem from these groups being unwilling to work together.
- dsr_ 5y ago
  "analysis paralysis" isn't caused by reading too widely. It's a form of executive function disorder, either situational or ongoing, where making a choice is aborted by incomplete evaluation of the available options. Your mind assigns an infinite penalty and non-zero chance of failure, and that blocks consideration of actual chances of success. One of the effective solutions is to construct a risk table, in which you list out: - each option - the costs to perform the option - the likelihood of success of the option - the value of success via the option - the penalty of failure via the option - the cost to ameliorate failure of the option And you never assign a 0 or infinite value to any of those factors; a range of .05 to .99 is usually appropriate. For binary choices, this can sometimes be short-circuited by flipping a coin and asking yourself if this feels worse than the alternative.

throwaway39203 5y ago

IMO - As a child or teenager you try out different personalities, ideas, etc, then look back, say "what was I thinking", and learn a bit about how your own mind works. Better then, when consequences are small for you and everyone else, than to delay it until adulthood.