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We all get heavily sold the “American dream” which is a lie to keep the lower classes constantly working hard.

missedthecue 5y ago
A lie? Americans have the highest median disposable income in the OECD after adjusting for government transfers like healthcare and education and for purchasing power parity. And it's not even close. US is at $54k, second place is tiny Luxembourg with $49k, Germany is at $42k, United Kingdom and Sweden at $35k, and Korea at $27k. https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm (change net to gross adjusted in the menu to view the data)
- hashmush 5y ago
  But what are you gonna do with that income if you're constantly working?
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    Americans work only an hour more per week than the OECD average. https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm Americans watch an average of 600 hours of Netflix per year. They aren't short on time. https://www.nexttv.com/news/analysis-americans-averaged-600-hours-of-netflix-in-2020 https://www.nexttv.com/news/analysis-americans-averaged-600-...
    - raffraffraff 5y ago
      > Americans watch an average of 600 hours of Netflix per year. Ah. So that's why they're dissatisfied.
  - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
    Given the American ethos, I bet the USA will be one of the last countries to introduce the 4-day work week.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  The US has substantially larger household sizes than any, except Korea, of the rest of the top 5 by household income, so comparing median household figures is misleading: https://www.oecd.org/els/family/SF_1_1_Family_size_and_composition.pdf https://www.oecd.org/els/family/SF_1_1_Family_size_and_compo...
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    How much income does your four year old haul in on an annual basis?
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      The US has a much higher than OECD average share of households that are neither single, single-parent or couple with or without children, because of non-family adults living together for economic reasons. The difference in household size isn't just kids.
- biophysboy 5y ago
  I think the argument is that it is a lie that this will translate to life satisfaction. Americans could probably take more vacation, for instance. The survey is being misinterpreted though. Its not that only 2% of Americans are satisfied, its that 2% of Americans offer vague positive vibes rather than a specific answer to what gives them meaning. I don't think I am stereotyping when I say Germany, Japan, and South Korea are more reserved culturally, so of course they're going to be more likely to say "yeah things are going fine overall".
- rvense 5y ago
  Dane here. I work 30 hours per week as a programmer. My wife works full time for an NGO. Looking at that chart I think we're fairly average for our country, maybe a little bit higher. My wife is currently on maternity leave with almost full pay. I am allowed by law to take paternity leave, and as is common my contract gives me several months with full pay. Even if you don't get paid by your work, you have the right to take up to a year off (in all for both of us) with government support. Even if we both lost our jobs, our (government-subsidized) unemployment insurances are enough to mean we would be able to live more or less as we do now for the two years that the insurance covers, without finding jobs. With some adjustments to our living standard, we might just about be able to at least stay where we live now, even with just the lower benefit rates that we would be able to collect after the two years. We are, however, both in positions where finding new work is fairly simple. Health care is free and not tied to our employment situation. If either of us become gravely ill, we can worry about the illness, not the cost of treatment. There is no such thing as a "medical bankruptcy" here, and we don't have GoFundMe. We were paid a little to go to university. I still have some (government) student loads from that time because I was a bit of a fuck-up and didn't work while studying, but it's not so bad. All in all, I live mostly free of fear and certainly free of want. You think I'd trade that for 18k per year? Would saving up all of it mean I could get even close to this? And how do the people who are below average fare?
- asoneth 5y ago
  When James Truslow Adams coined the term "American Dream" in 1931 he defined it as: "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement". Social mobility in the United States is better than most countries in the world but not particularly high compared to similar countries. More worrying is that it has been falling over time. This kind of social stratification eventually results in large swaths of the country and citizenry for whom life is not better and who do not have the same opportunities. Having more money certainly helps -- it's hard for anyone to live a "better and richer and fuller" life if they cannot afford necessities. But past a certain point the correlation between a country's wealth and measures like happiness, life expectancy, social mobility, life satisfaction, etc seem to break down, especially in the US. Which to me indicates that we're probably not using our wealth efficiently.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    Social mobility in the States is lower because the income quintiles are further apart.
- mbrodersen 5y ago
  Median disposable income has nothing to do with how well the bottom part of society is doing. 40% of Americans have limited or no health insurance. And Americans in general live shorter lives than Europeans. 100% of Western Europeans have full health coverage and free or close to free access to top Universities. Comparing different countries can’t be boiled down to median disposable income. Unless you have a very simplistic view on what matters in life.
- nobodyandproud 5y ago
  https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/central.html https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/central.html Mean income (the more useless measure) is about $54,000. Median income (the meaningful, realistic number) is $34,000. How many of these people $34k jobs do you think come with actual health, dental, and other benefits? The middle income families are barely scraping by.
hakimguen 5y ago
Check the posters history. A heavy CCP sympathizer.
darth_avocado 5y ago
I strongly disagree with the statement, United States, although behind a lot of countries in social mobility index, still ranks pretty high in the world. It also leads with 8.8% of the adult population being millionaires, only behind Switzerland and Australia. That speaks volumes on how many opportunities exist in this country to make yourself better.
- convolvatron 5y ago
  or, it means that 80% are left behind with no real opportunity for advancement whatsoever. I'm not saying this is true - but largest number of millionaires isn't maybe the best metric for the overall happiness of the population?
  - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
    Thats why the comment also mentioned social mobility index. But curiously, everyone seems to be ignoring that.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- brnt 5y ago
  Superstarism is the bias of only looking at success (which here is defined in a very narrow which betrays a secnd bias but that's another discussion). Superstarism is a old tool and well documented (for those who read) tool of the rulers of courts to keep their entourage in check. In brief: be an abbedient lackey or lose the favour of the court. Because it misses the bottom percentiles overlooking, it overlooks them; as e.g. the French revolution shows, it may become untenable, for good reasons, at any moment. The existence of opportunity is best proven not by looking at how high one might go, but at how many are left behind. And how, according to certain measures, they are in fact regressing.
  - nsonha 5y ago
    who said anything about success? If you are even suggesting poverty in America is the same as poverty in most of Asia, or Africa, I think you should shut the hell up and do some traveling. Same to the middle class. This guy is from South East Asia.

A lie? Americans have the highest median disposable income in the OECD after adjusting for government transfers like healthcare and education and for purchasing power parity. And it's not even close. US is at $54k, second place is tiny Luxembourg with $49k, Germany is at $42k, United Kingdom and Sweden at $35k, and Korea at $27k. https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm (change net to gross adjusted in the menu to view the data)

hashmush 5y ago
But what are you gonna do with that income if you're constantly working?
- missedthecue 5y ago
  Americans work only an hour more per week than the OECD average. https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm Americans watch an average of 600 hours of Netflix per year. They aren't short on time. https://www.nexttv.com/news/analysis-americans-averaged-600-hours-of-netflix-in-2020 https://www.nexttv.com/news/analysis-americans-averaged-600-...
  - raffraffraff 5y ago
    > Americans watch an average of 600 hours of Netflix per year. Ah. So that's why they're dissatisfied.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  Given the American ethos, I bet the USA will be one of the last countries to introduce the 4-day work week.
dragonwriter 5y ago
The US has substantially larger household sizes than any, except Korea, of the rest of the top 5 by household income, so comparing median household figures is misleading: https://www.oecd.org/els/family/SF_1_1_Family_size_and_composition.pdf https://www.oecd.org/els/family/SF_1_1_Family_size_and_compo...
- missedthecue 5y ago
  How much income does your four year old haul in on an annual basis?
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    The US has a much higher than OECD average share of households that are neither single, single-parent or couple with or without children, because of non-family adults living together for economic reasons. The difference in household size isn't just kids.
biophysboy 5y ago
I think the argument is that it is a lie that this will translate to life satisfaction. Americans could probably take more vacation, for instance. The survey is being misinterpreted though. Its not that only 2% of Americans are satisfied, its that 2% of Americans offer vague positive vibes rather than a specific answer to what gives them meaning. I don't think I am stereotyping when I say Germany, Japan, and South Korea are more reserved culturally, so of course they're going to be more likely to say "yeah things are going fine overall".
rvense 5y ago
Dane here. I work 30 hours per week as a programmer. My wife works full time for an NGO. Looking at that chart I think we're fairly average for our country, maybe a little bit higher. My wife is currently on maternity leave with almost full pay. I am allowed by law to take paternity leave, and as is common my contract gives me several months with full pay. Even if you don't get paid by your work, you have the right to take up to a year off (in all for both of us) with government support. Even if we both lost our jobs, our (government-subsidized) unemployment insurances are enough to mean we would be able to live more or less as we do now for the two years that the insurance covers, without finding jobs. With some adjustments to our living standard, we might just about be able to at least stay where we live now, even with just the lower benefit rates that we would be able to collect after the two years. We are, however, both in positions where finding new work is fairly simple. Health care is free and not tied to our employment situation. If either of us become gravely ill, we can worry about the illness, not the cost of treatment. There is no such thing as a "medical bankruptcy" here, and we don't have GoFundMe. We were paid a little to go to university. I still have some (government) student loads from that time because I was a bit of a fuck-up and didn't work while studying, but it's not so bad. All in all, I live mostly free of fear and certainly free of want. You think I'd trade that for 18k per year? Would saving up all of it mean I could get even close to this? And how do the people who are below average fare?
asoneth 5y ago
When James Truslow Adams coined the term "American Dream" in 1931 he defined it as: "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement". Social mobility in the United States is better than most countries in the world but not particularly high compared to similar countries. More worrying is that it has been falling over time. This kind of social stratification eventually results in large swaths of the country and citizenry for whom life is not better and who do not have the same opportunities. Having more money certainly helps -- it's hard for anyone to live a "better and richer and fuller" life if they cannot afford necessities. But past a certain point the correlation between a country's wealth and measures like happiness, life expectancy, social mobility, life satisfaction, etc seem to break down, especially in the US. Which to me indicates that we're probably not using our wealth efficiently.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  Social mobility in the States is lower because the income quintiles are further apart.
mbrodersen 5y ago
Median disposable income has nothing to do with how well the bottom part of society is doing. 40% of Americans have limited or no health insurance. And Americans in general live shorter lives than Europeans. 100% of Western Europeans have full health coverage and free or close to free access to top Universities. Comparing different countries can’t be boiled down to median disposable income. Unless you have a very simplistic view on what matters in life.
nobodyandproud 5y ago
https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/central.html https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/central.html Mean income (the more useless measure) is about $54,000. Median income (the meaningful, realistic number) is $34,000. How many of these people $34k jobs do you think come with actual health, dental, and other benefits? The middle income families are barely scraping by.

hakimguen 5y ago

Check the posters history. A heavy CCP sympathizer.

darth_avocado 5y ago

I strongly disagree with the statement, United States, although behind a lot of countries in social mobility index, still ranks pretty high in the world. It also leads with 8.8% of the adult population being millionaires, only behind Switzerland and Australia. That speaks volumes on how many opportunities exist in this country to make yourself better.

convolvatron 5y ago
or, it means that 80% are left behind with no real opportunity for advancement whatsoever. I'm not saying this is true - but largest number of millionaires isn't maybe the best metric for the overall happiness of the population?
- cscurmudgeon 5y ago
  Thats why the comment also mentioned social mobility index. But curiously, everyone seems to be ignoring that.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
brnt 5y ago
Superstarism is the bias of only looking at success (which here is defined in a very narrow which betrays a secnd bias but that's another discussion). Superstarism is a old tool and well documented (for those who read) tool of the rulers of courts to keep their entourage in check. In brief: be an abbedient lackey or lose the favour of the court. Because it misses the bottom percentiles overlooking, it overlooks them; as e.g. the French revolution shows, it may become untenable, for good reasons, at any moment. The existence of opportunity is best proven not by looking at how high one might go, but at how many are left behind. And how, according to certain measures, they are in fact regressing.
- nsonha 5y ago
  who said anything about success? If you are even suggesting poverty in America is the same as poverty in most of Asia, or Africa, I think you should shut the hell up and do some traveling. Same to the middle class. This guy is from South East Asia.