4 ms·

Yeah the language is a bit strong. I’m serious about the jealousy though - perhaps it’s just me. But when I see someone making a boatload on Tesla and I’m sitti

Yeah the language is a bit strong. I’m serious about the jealousy though - perhaps it’s just me. But when I see someone making a boatload on Tesla and I’m sitting there thinking it’s ridiculous, where does that really come from? All I know is I probably wouldn’t care either way if I’d owned some…and since my experiences with day trading and algorithmic trading, I’m convinced 90% of finance is emotional. It clouds the mind and corrupts usually rational people.

danielmarkbruce 5y ago
You are sitting there thinking it's ridiculous on Tesla. Are you thinking it's ridiculous on Google? Or Apple? Don't give yourself a hard time :) I think the Tesla stock price is ridiculous. It's not a jealousy thing. I don't think Google or Apple share prices are ridiculous, and more people made more money out of those two. If someone makes money in a ridiculous way, it's ok to think it's ridiculous.
- sjtindell 5y ago
  True. The point I was making was one about emotion in finance - when I’m making money it’s easier to ignore rational doubts, and when I’m missing out it’s easier to focus on the negatives because a little voice in the back of my head wants it to fail.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - danielmarkbruce 5y ago
    You want it to fail or you want to be right? Nothing wrong with wanting to be right. If Tesla stays at a crazy high valuation for the long term, then several mental models I use and find valuable fall to pieces. That would be very annoying for me on several dimensions because it's likely they wouldn't be replaced with useful mental models. They'd be replaced with "ITS ALL JUST CHAOS".
    - tim333 5y ago
      Markets look to the future. The Tesla valuation makes sense if they are going to do a trillion of business at some future point.
      - danielmarkbruce 5y ago
        Everyone thinking about the Tesla valuation is aware markets look to the future :) Even then - your statement is simplistic - the future cashflows are discounted back to today. As an example, if their revenue is $1 trillion (assume no inflation for simplicity) in 50 years, and we assume 10% net income margin (probably in the ballpark of reasonable) they make $100 bill which is discounted 50 years to today at maybe 8% (?), that year's earnings is worth around $2 billion today. You may reasonably counter that they will grow much faster than that - and this is where people (like me) question it. The total industry is ~$3 trillion or so, globally. 85 million units. Telsa will hit maybe 900k units this year. So its a tough sell that they'll get to 25-30 mill units anytime soon (from a demand or supply side). Don't get me wrong - Tesla is brilliant, Elon is brilliant. It doesn't mean the company is worth infinity. There is some concrete number which makes sense... and to many folks, 1 trillion is an order of magnitude too high.
        tim333 5y ago
        Yeah but re mental models you combine that with "...Mr. Market’s quotations will be anything but. For, sad to say, the poor fellow has incurable emotional problems. At times he feels euphoric and can see only the favorable factors affecting the business..."
        danielmarkbruce 5y ago
        Sure. But old Ben Graham also said that in the long-run the market is a weighing machine. Note above I said "long term". If Tesla stays long term at current prices or above, I've completely misunderstood several things in a pretty fundamental way. As an example - gold has stayed at prices which don't make much sense to me for a very long time. So my mental model for that market is "it's crazy town, stay away". That's not a very useful model. I hope I don't arrive at the same place on what is a pretty simple company - they sell cars.
verdverm 5y ago
The biggest attitude problem in crypto is to respond to technical questions and challenges with personal attacks. Such a turn off both technically and socially. I find it more toxic and tribal than politics at this point.

danielmarkbruce 5y ago

You are sitting there thinking it's ridiculous on Tesla. Are you thinking it's ridiculous on Google? Or Apple? Don't give yourself a hard time :) I think the Tesla stock price is ridiculous. It's not a jealousy thing. I don't think Google or Apple share prices are ridiculous, and more people made more money out of those two. If someone makes money in a ridiculous way, it's ok to think it's ridiculous.

sjtindell 5y ago
True. The point I was making was one about emotion in finance - when I’m making money it’s easier to ignore rational doubts, and when I’m missing out it’s easier to focus on the negatives because a little voice in the back of my head wants it to fail.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- danielmarkbruce 5y ago
  You want it to fail or you want to be right? Nothing wrong with wanting to be right. If Tesla stays at a crazy high valuation for the long term, then several mental models I use and find valuable fall to pieces. That would be very annoying for me on several dimensions because it's likely they wouldn't be replaced with useful mental models. They'd be replaced with "ITS ALL JUST CHAOS".
  - tim333 5y ago
    Markets look to the future. The Tesla valuation makes sense if they are going to do a trillion of business at some future point.
    - danielmarkbruce 5y ago
      Everyone thinking about the Tesla valuation is aware markets look to the future :) Even then - your statement is simplistic - the future cashflows are discounted back to today. As an example, if their revenue is $1 trillion (assume no inflation for simplicity) in 50 years, and we assume 10% net income margin (probably in the ballpark of reasonable) they make $100 bill which is discounted 50 years to today at maybe 8% (?), that year's earnings is worth around $2 billion today. You may reasonably counter that they will grow much faster than that - and this is where people (like me) question it. The total industry is ~$3 trillion or so, globally. 85 million units. Telsa will hit maybe 900k units this year. So its a tough sell that they'll get to 25-30 mill units anytime soon (from a demand or supply side). Don't get me wrong - Tesla is brilliant, Elon is brilliant. It doesn't mean the company is worth infinity. There is some concrete number which makes sense... and to many folks, 1 trillion is an order of magnitude too high.
      - tim333 5y ago
        Yeah but re mental models you combine that with "...Mr. Market’s quotations will be anything but. For, sad to say, the poor fellow has incurable emotional problems. At times he feels euphoric and can see only the favorable factors affecting the business..."
        danielmarkbruce 5y ago
        Sure. But old Ben Graham also said that in the long-run the market is a weighing machine. Note above I said "long term". If Tesla stays long term at current prices or above, I've completely misunderstood several things in a pretty fundamental way. As an example - gold has stayed at prices which don't make much sense to me for a very long time. So my mental model for that market is "it's crazy town, stay away". That's not a very useful model. I hope I don't arrive at the same place on what is a pretty simple company - they sell cars.

verdverm 5y ago

The biggest attitude problem in crypto is to respond to technical questions and challenges with personal attacks. Such a turn off both technically and socially. I find it more toxic and tribal than politics at this point.