5 ms·

> makes issuing a UBI really easy Query: Who produces the goods & services that create value in a country/society when everyone is collecting UBI? Is it just t

> makes issuing a UBI really easy Query: Who produces the goods & services that create value in a country/society when everyone is collecting UBI? Is it just the people who 'enjoy' working? And, when UBI causes baseline consumable prices to rise, we just keep raising UBI, right? Can we just call it for what it really is... communism? Why keep pretending?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ljm 5y ago
Communism would imply a lot more than providing a base income to everyone to keep them out of abject poverty. You might be thinking of socialist democracy which maintains a balance between unfettered capitalism and full-blown communism. In the UK you get about 10k personal allowance before you have to start paying tax. That is one form of UBI although it requires you to earn an income (and you actually start to lose this allowance once you start earning over 100k). You could replace that all the same with a system that dumps 10k into your account every year and then starts taxing you for every penny earned (at a higher rate). We have had the past 100-or-so years to learn, empirically, that both unfettered capitalism and full-blown communism are not particularly good ways to maintain a healthy society.
Ericson2314 5y ago
> Who produces the goods & services that create value in a country/society when everyone is collecting UBI? The people collecting UBI, duh. The events of the past 2 years have convinced me that even a small UBI can still have a large effect. > And, when UBI causes baseline consumable prices to rise, we just keep raising UBI, right? Don't be an idiot. "pure inflation" is multiplicative, scaling all prices the same. UBI is additive providing a base-line income stream. The interaction will be very complex. UBI can be paired with simple-stupid regressive taxes like VAT and still come out net-progressive. There will be some adjustments in prices but a new equilibrium absolutely can be reached. > Can we just call it for what it really is... communism? Why keep pretending? The idea is that "the first x dollars of consumption are socialism, the rest capitalism". It is not 100% socialism, don't be an idiot. It is only bad if you believe society depends on sticks and workers will not work for mostly carrots. Is that what you believe?
- qq4 5y ago
  > The events of the past 2 years have convinced me that even a small UBI can still have a large effect Can you expand on this. What events have convinced you? Fwiw I'm trying not to be an idiot ;)
  - Ericson2314 5y ago
    Sure, the expanded but still measly unemployment insurance (the other UI :)) along with one-off pandemic checks is much less than an 1000/month UBI, and yet turned what was ready to be to a far worse recession than the 2009 one until something we quickly bounced back from, got higher real wages for the bottom 50% (or so), and got a bunch of a healthy strikes. We truly made lemonade out of life's lemons, turning 2020 and 2021 into better years than 2019 or poorer Americans. It's beautiful that this happened, and yet it's super frustrating had we done the same thing in 2010 or so, we could have prevented much of the lousy growth and other malaise of the past decade. So yes, pretty dramatic efffect from just a little bit of cash printed into the right hands. (As opposed to regular monetary policy which is far more complicated in its effects, and doesn't seem to work very well at all.)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ljm 5y ago

Communism would imply a lot more than providing a base income to everyone to keep them out of abject poverty. You might be thinking of socialist democracy which maintains a balance between unfettered capitalism and full-blown communism. In the UK you get about 10k personal allowance before you have to start paying tax. That is one form of UBI although it requires you to earn an income (and you actually start to lose this allowance once you start earning over 100k). You could replace that all the same with a system that dumps 10k into your account every year and then starts taxing you for every penny earned (at a higher rate). We have had the past 100-or-so years to learn, empirically, that both unfettered capitalism and full-blown communism are not particularly good ways to maintain a healthy society.

Ericson2314 5y ago

> Who produces the goods & services that create value in a country/society when everyone is collecting UBI? The people collecting UBI, duh. The events of the past 2 years have convinced me that even a small UBI can still have a large effect. > And, when UBI causes baseline consumable prices to rise, we just keep raising UBI, right? Don't be an idiot. "pure inflation" is multiplicative, scaling all prices the same. UBI is additive providing a base-line income stream. The interaction will be very complex. UBI can be paired with simple-stupid regressive taxes like VAT and still come out net-progressive. There will be some adjustments in prices but a new equilibrium absolutely can be reached. > Can we just call it for what it really is... communism? Why keep pretending? The idea is that "the first x dollars of consumption are socialism, the rest capitalism". It is not 100% socialism, don't be an idiot. It is only bad if you believe society depends on sticks and workers will not work for mostly carrots. Is that what you believe?

qq4 5y ago
> The events of the past 2 years have convinced me that even a small UBI can still have a large effect Can you expand on this. What events have convinced you? Fwiw I'm trying not to be an idiot ;)
- Ericson2314 5y ago
  Sure, the expanded but still measly unemployment insurance (the other UI :)) along with one-off pandemic checks is much less than an 1000/month UBI, and yet turned what was ready to be to a far worse recession than the 2009 one until something we quickly bounced back from, got higher real wages for the bottom 50% (or so), and got a bunch of a healthy strikes. We truly made lemonade out of life's lemons, turning 2020 and 2021 into better years than 2019 or poorer Americans. It's beautiful that this happened, and yet it's super frustrating had we done the same thing in 2010 or so, we could have prevented much of the lousy growth and other malaise of the past decade. So yes, pretty dramatic efffect from just a little bit of cash printed into the right hands. (As opposed to regular monetary policy which is far more complicated in its effects, and doesn't seem to work very well at all.)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]