8 ms·

Nobody’s calling for banning books. They are calling for not using certain books in curriculum, which is very different and not allowing certain books is necess

Nobody’s calling for banning books. They are calling for not using certain books in curriculum, which is very different and not allowing certain books is necessary for any school system. I wouldn’t want my kid to write “A kid’s version of Algebra” and then have it used in schools. I wouldn’t want a flat-earther to have his Science book in schools. Who wants Trump’s guide to Civics? That’s super different than “banning books” like it’s 1940s Germany or something. EDIT: Some are saying that this would also apply to the school library. This, in my view, doesn’t negate the schools need to discriminate between content in the least. I would not want a flat earther science book in the curriculum or in the library.

bwb 5y ago
I guess it depends a little on who is making the choices. If it is politician driven, might be fair to call it banning. If it is the school system and teachers making a choice about what to use to teach effectively that seems like good policy.
- LocalH 5y ago
  If they're public schools, the funding is governmental (state-based in the US), and thus there could be an argument made that it is still "banning". In private schools, not so much (but then again, pretty sure private schools can already control their curriculum and the books available to students from the library).
- bequanna 5y ago
  I think you have that backwards. Parents and the community should have the final say when deciding what is included in a curriculum, not (potentially activist) teachers and school boards.
  - quadrifoliate 5y ago
    > Parents and the community should have the final say ...not (potentially activist) teachers and school boards. Aren't school boards usually elected by the community? Also, generally, a lot of public school teaching is about encouraging a newer generation to think for themselves, and potentially be exposed to ideas that are not constrained by the parents and the community. Parents who want to micromanage what ideas their kid is exposed to should consider homeschooling.
    - bequanna 5y ago
      Let's get real for a second and be honest about the very real problem we are discussing: Political activist teachers are pushing their agendas onto students. This has been quietly happening for some time, but has become harder for the teachers to hide as children started completing more instruction and schoolwork in the home. These are not isolated incidents and the examples of this happening are everywhere in the US. In fact, many teachers have been caught openly bragging about trying to create "radicalized" students. This is precisely why we've seen a grassroots push by parents against teachers and admin.
      - aspenmayer 5y ago
        I haven’t seen this or heard this. Could you link a few isolated examples of these “not isolated incidents” of teachers “radicalizing” students?
  - LocalH 5y ago
    That only works to a point. If a community decided "math is stupid, our schools shouldn't be teaching it", they should quite rightly be overridden. Instead of treating it like a power grab, perhaps the process for determining curriculum should be more open and transparent?
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      If a community decided that math is stupid and our schools shouldn't be teaching it, they may actually have a point. Who defines "math"? Is it all the way to Calculus 2 because the math teachers got excited and thought everyone needs to get that far? Is it politics disguised as math? I'd trust the community in that case. And if it backfires, they get to live with the consequences. Not everything needs to be idiot-proof. Our country might do much better if we just let bad ideas fail hard.
      - LocalH 5y ago
        It wouldn't be so bad if "bad ideas fail[ing] hard" didn't have the potential to quite literally ruin the lives of the youths who come up in these environments.
trasz 5y ago
The article says it’s about books being available to kids in libraries, not curriculum per se.
js2 5y ago
No, they are literally calling for banning books from school libraries. Books that are not used as part of the curriculum. https://www.alternet.org/2021/11/henry-mcmaster/ https://www.alternet.org/2021/11/henry-mcmaster/ They are also literally calling for burning books: > Two board members, Courtland representative Rabih Abuismail and Livingston representative Kirk Twigg, said they would like to see the removed books burned. > “I think we should throw those books in a fire,” Abuismail said, and Twigg said he wants to “see the books before we burn them so we can identify within our community that we are eradicating this bad stuff.” https://fredericksburg.com/news/local/education/spotsylvania-school-board-orders-libraries-to-remove-sexually-explicit-books/article_6c54507a-6383-534d-89b9-c2deb1f6ba17.html https://fredericksburg.com/news/local/education/spotsylvania...
- erichocean 5y ago
  Burning "porn"? Literally (heh), that's what the Nazis did. Yikes.
shagie 5y ago
> Nobody’s calling for banning books. They are calling for not using certain books in curriculum, which is very different and not allowing certain books is necessary for any school system. From the other day on NPR: https://www.npr.org/2021/11/11/1054798508/when-schools-ban-books https://www.npr.org/2021/11/11/1054798508/when-schools-ban-b... > Texas Gov. Greg Abbott joined Krause's efforts this week, sending his own letter to the Texas Education Agency asking it and other agencies "to immediately develop statewide standards to prevent the presence of pornography and other obscene content in Texas public schools, including in school libraries." > While the censorship of some books in schools is nothing new, a growing number of challenges are against books about race. In her reporting on the topic, KERA reporter Miranda Suarez spoke to Deborah Caldwell-Stone who leads the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom. Caldwell-Stones said, "We went from a situation where the majority of books being challenged and removed in schools and libraries dealt with LGBTQ themes, to a situation where there's a real mix." The referenced letter is https://gov.texas.gov/news/post/governor-abbott-directs-tea-tslac-sboe-to-shield-children-from-pornography-inappropriate-content-in-texas-public-schools https://gov.texas.gov/news/post/governor-abbott-directs-tea-... --- So yes, this is a book ban and its not just material in the curriculum but also content in the libraries.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  Well then, again, would you want a flat-earther science manual in the school library? Schools exercising discretion is not 1940s Germany book bans and the two are not comparable.
  - ncallaway 5y ago
    I would be surprised if the librarian had the flat-earther science manual already in the library. But if it was already in the library, I would not want to ban it from the library as a remedy. That's insanity. So, no, I don't want the book in the school library, but I sure as shit don't want to ban it from the school library either.
  - BashiBazouk 5y ago
    Why not? Sure flat earth science would be horrible for science curriculum but the book in the library is fine. What if a student wanted to do a report on flat earthers? Should they have no access to reference material?
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
Sorry, no, that's utterly wrong. "Used in curriculum" means that they would be used in the teaching of subjects in class. There are school districts and entire state school systems that are starting to ban books on the topics of sexual orientation and critical race theory from being in the school library at all.
015a 5y ago
But, they are, in some instances, calling for the removal of some of these books from school libraries. I would qualify that as "book burning" (dramatically, metaphorically); its similar to the argument that school lunches have to be healthy, because in unfortunately-to-many cases it may be the only meal that student gets today. Additionally, as you point out of the gulf between this and 1940s Germany, I will point out the gulf between "flat earther science" and "books on critical race theory, LGBTQ studies, and The Hunger Games". That's a strawman. Curriculum time is a limited resource, absolutely, so some concessions have to be made; we should be skeptical when those concessions are politically, religiously, or ideologically motivated, rather than academically, scientifically, artistically, or societally. Even with a title like the Hunger Games (or Harry Potter, which lest anyone forget was also very contentious with the Religious Right upon its release, due to concerns about kids studying witchcraft); sure, its not exactly Gödel, Escher, Bach; but its still reading! Do you know how rare reading is, especially among our children who have spent their entire lives connected to the internet, having instant access to the latest dopamine-inducing content on Tik Tok? Any book which can capture their interest, and maybe open a door to a more critical and insightful fifth, sixth, and seventh book, should be in consideration.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  You are aware that >40% of this country views flat-earth, LGBTQ studies, and CRT at the same level of regard? If they didn't, why the school board battles going on all over the place? As far as they are concerned, there is no gulf between them.
  - shagie 5y ago
    ... and that is why the The Gale Encyclopedia of Medicine ( https://www.amazon.com/Gale-Encyclopedia-Medicine-Set/dp/1414403682 https://www.amazon.com/Gale-Encyclopedia-Medicine-Set/dp/141... ) is on the list of books being removed ( https://static.texastribune.org/media/files/94fee7ff93eff9609f141433e41f8ae1/krausebooklist.pdf?_ga=2.11573559.2091958781.1635513476-272773625.1635513476 https://static.texastribune.org/media/files/94fee7ff93eff960... )

bwb 5y ago

I guess it depends a little on who is making the choices. If it is politician driven, might be fair to call it banning. If it is the school system and teachers making a choice about what to use to teach effectively that seems like good policy.

LocalH 5y ago
If they're public schools, the funding is governmental (state-based in the US), and thus there could be an argument made that it is still "banning". In private schools, not so much (but then again, pretty sure private schools can already control their curriculum and the books available to students from the library).
bequanna 5y ago
I think you have that backwards. Parents and the community should have the final say when deciding what is included in a curriculum, not (potentially activist) teachers and school boards.
- quadrifoliate 5y ago
  > Parents and the community should have the final say ...not (potentially activist) teachers and school boards. Aren't school boards usually elected by the community? Also, generally, a lot of public school teaching is about encouraging a newer generation to think for themselves, and potentially be exposed to ideas that are not constrained by the parents and the community. Parents who want to micromanage what ideas their kid is exposed to should consider homeschooling.
  - bequanna 5y ago
    Let's get real for a second and be honest about the very real problem we are discussing: Political activist teachers are pushing their agendas onto students. This has been quietly happening for some time, but has become harder for the teachers to hide as children started completing more instruction and schoolwork in the home. These are not isolated incidents and the examples of this happening are everywhere in the US. In fact, many teachers have been caught openly bragging about trying to create "radicalized" students. This is precisely why we've seen a grassroots push by parents against teachers and admin.
    - aspenmayer 5y ago
      I haven’t seen this or heard this. Could you link a few isolated examples of these “not isolated incidents” of teachers “radicalizing” students?
- LocalH 5y ago
  That only works to a point. If a community decided "math is stupid, our schools shouldn't be teaching it", they should quite rightly be overridden. Instead of treating it like a power grab, perhaps the process for determining curriculum should be more open and transparent?
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    If a community decided that math is stupid and our schools shouldn't be teaching it, they may actually have a point. Who defines "math"? Is it all the way to Calculus 2 because the math teachers got excited and thought everyone needs to get that far? Is it politics disguised as math? I'd trust the community in that case. And if it backfires, they get to live with the consequences. Not everything needs to be idiot-proof. Our country might do much better if we just let bad ideas fail hard.
    - LocalH 5y ago
      It wouldn't be so bad if "bad ideas fail[ing] hard" didn't have the potential to quite literally ruin the lives of the youths who come up in these environments.

trasz 5y ago

The article says it’s about books being available to kids in libraries, not curriculum per se.

js2 5y ago

No, they are literally calling for banning books from school libraries. Books that are not used as part of the curriculum. https://www.alternet.org/2021/11/henry-mcmaster/ https://www.alternet.org/2021/11/henry-mcmaster/ They are also literally calling for burning books: > Two board members, Courtland representative Rabih Abuismail and Livingston representative Kirk Twigg, said they would like to see the removed books burned. > “I think we should throw those books in a fire,” Abuismail said, and Twigg said he wants to “see the books before we burn them so we can identify within our community that we are eradicating this bad stuff.” https://fredericksburg.com/news/local/education/spotsylvania-school-board-orders-libraries-to-remove-sexually-explicit-books/article_6c54507a-6383-534d-89b9-c2deb1f6ba17.html https://fredericksburg.com/news/local/education/spotsylvania...

erichocean 5y ago
Burning "porn"? Literally (heh), that's what the Nazis did. Yikes.

shagie 5y ago

> Nobody’s calling for banning books. They are calling for not using certain books in curriculum, which is very different and not allowing certain books is necessary for any school system. From the other day on NPR: https://www.npr.org/2021/11/11/1054798508/when-schools-ban-books https://www.npr.org/2021/11/11/1054798508/when-schools-ban-b... > Texas Gov. Greg Abbott joined Krause's efforts this week, sending his own letter to the Texas Education Agency asking it and other agencies "to immediately develop statewide standards to prevent the presence of pornography and other obscene content in Texas public schools, including in school libraries." > While the censorship of some books in schools is nothing new, a growing number of challenges are against books about race. In her reporting on the topic, KERA reporter Miranda Suarez spoke to Deborah Caldwell-Stone who leads the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom. Caldwell-Stones said, "We went from a situation where the majority of books being challenged and removed in schools and libraries dealt with LGBTQ themes, to a situation where there's a real mix." The referenced letter is https://gov.texas.gov/news/post/governor-abbott-directs-tea-tslac-sboe-to-shield-children-from-pornography-inappropriate-content-in-texas-public-schools https://gov.texas.gov/news/post/governor-abbott-directs-tea-... --- So yes, this is a book ban and its not just material in the curriculum but also content in the libraries.

gjsman-1000 5y ago
Well then, again, would you want a flat-earther science manual in the school library? Schools exercising discretion is not 1940s Germany book bans and the two are not comparable.
- ncallaway 5y ago
  I would be surprised if the librarian had the flat-earther science manual already in the library. But if it was already in the library, I would not want to ban it from the library as a remedy. That's insanity. So, no, I don't want the book in the school library, but I sure as shit don't want to ban it from the school library either.
- BashiBazouk 5y ago
  Why not? Sure flat earth science would be horrible for science curriculum but the book in the library is fine. What if a student wanted to do a report on flat earthers? Should they have no access to reference material?

MisterBastahrd 5y ago

Sorry, no, that's utterly wrong. "Used in curriculum" means that they would be used in the teaching of subjects in class. There are school districts and entire state school systems that are starting to ban books on the topics of sexual orientation and critical race theory from being in the school library at all.

015a 5y ago

But, they are, in some instances, calling for the removal of some of these books from school libraries. I would qualify that as "book burning" (dramatically, metaphorically); its similar to the argument that school lunches have to be healthy, because in unfortunately-to-many cases it may be the only meal that student gets today. Additionally, as you point out of the gulf between this and 1940s Germany, I will point out the gulf between "flat earther science" and "books on critical race theory, LGBTQ studies, and The Hunger Games". That's a strawman. Curriculum time is a limited resource, absolutely, so some concessions have to be made; we should be skeptical when those concessions are politically, religiously, or ideologically motivated, rather than academically, scientifically, artistically, or societally. Even with a title like the Hunger Games (or Harry Potter, which lest anyone forget was also very contentious with the Religious Right upon its release, due to concerns about kids studying witchcraft); sure, its not exactly Gödel, Escher, Bach; but its still reading! Do you know how rare reading is, especially among our children who have spent their entire lives connected to the internet, having instant access to the latest dopamine-inducing content on Tik Tok? Any book which can capture their interest, and maybe open a door to a more critical and insightful fifth, sixth, and seventh book, should be in consideration.

gjsman-1000 5y ago
You are aware that >40% of this country views flat-earth, LGBTQ studies, and CRT at the same level of regard? If they didn't, why the school board battles going on all over the place? As far as they are concerned, there is no gulf between them.
- shagie 5y ago
  ... and that is why the The Gale Encyclopedia of Medicine ( https://www.amazon.com/Gale-Encyclopedia-Medicine-Set/dp/1414403682 https://www.amazon.com/Gale-Encyclopedia-Medicine-Set/dp/141... ) is on the list of books being removed ( https://static.texastribune.org/media/files/94fee7ff93eff9609f141433e41f8ae1/krausebooklist.pdf?_ga=2.11573559.2091958781.1635513476-272773625.1635513476 https://static.texastribune.org/media/files/94fee7ff93eff960... )