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> Disagreed. Maybe in large companies that work at huge scales, but below that there's plenty of business value that can be delivered with what is essentially C

> Disagreed. Maybe in large companies that work at huge scales, but below that there's plenty of business value that can be delivered with what is essentially CRUD and there's still money to be made. But that's exactly what I'm saying! Just continue the thought: if CRUD is so easy, but money can be made then it will be automated away by frameworks or even commercial products. So less people will be needed and hence people will lose their jobs. Of course, the demand also increases, but still, think about it: 25 years ago, you could earn a lot of money by simply creating basic websites for people. This has become much easier/faster to do now, but making a lot of money with it has gotten much harder as well.

shubb 5y ago
CRUD is 'wierdly hard', in that 15 years ago, it was very easy to make a windows CRUD app in Visual Basic 6. An unskilled person could build such functionality at the same or faster speed than a quite skilled web developer. Modern web appears to have made the simple hard. Where you could once just draw a GUI (a responsive GUI), now you need to know CSS, and a simple multi column layout in CSS is something that takes a beginner days to understand. Then you need to write javascript - but not simple javascript. You 'need' to use a framework like React which takes a newbie months to 'fully' understand. What exactly do we get for all this new complexity? This is a solved problem made unsolved. There are a bunch of no-code or less-code solutions for this. Already basic ecomerce is achieved by just using these . But why not you app, front end dev reading this. Some will have good reasons, but many will not. I think you are writing it in react because you put a lot of effort into learning react and you are unable to even think of making a few low impact compromises and no-coding your next years work in a week. Why would an employee do that?
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  To be fair, you can still make a VB6 (or <insert favourite desktop app framework here>) app. The problem is that for legitimate reasons, most of the processing no longer happens on the client device, so there’s suddenly a lot more complexity. Making a desktop app that owns its data and is its the sole user is still easy. But most business requirements nowadays want a consumer product where people can interact with a subset of the data with a web UI or mobile app. That’s where the complexity comes in compared to VB6.
mtberatwork 5y ago
> Just continue the thought: if CRUD is so easy, but money can be made then it will be automated away by frameworks or even commercial products. So less people will be needed and hence people will lose their jobs. CRUD are just the basic backend operations for persisting data and frameworks provide the facilities to make this happen. Processing web forms via CRUD operations is just a subset of backend development. Companies hire software engineers to solve domain problems which are unique to the company and/or industry. Eventually things will get automated away where they can but there will always be new domain problems to work on for the foreseeable future. > 25 years ago, you could earn a lot of money by simply creating basic websites for people. This has become much easier/faster to do now, but making a lot of money with it has gotten much harder as well. No, 25 years ago no one was making money designing websites. In the late nineties, web sites were often just cobbled together by whomever in the company took an interest in the new medium. Also, aside from some outliers perhaps, no one was making the kind of salaries engineers can get these days.
Nextgrid 5y ago
Well, 80% of my job is CRUD. But the 20% remaining is custom logic attached to some objects being modified. That’s where the money is made and what prevents it from being automated away entirely.

shubb 5y ago

CRUD is 'wierdly hard', in that 15 years ago, it was very easy to make a windows CRUD app in Visual Basic 6. An unskilled person could build such functionality at the same or faster speed than a quite skilled web developer. Modern web appears to have made the simple hard. Where you could once just draw a GUI (a responsive GUI), now you need to know CSS, and a simple multi column layout in CSS is something that takes a beginner days to understand. Then you need to write javascript - but not simple javascript. You 'need' to use a framework like React which takes a newbie months to 'fully' understand. What exactly do we get for all this new complexity? This is a solved problem made unsolved. There are a bunch of no-code or less-code solutions for this. Already basic ecomerce is achieved by just using these . But why not you app, front end dev reading this. Some will have good reasons, but many will not. I think you are writing it in react because you put a lot of effort into learning react and you are unable to even think of making a few low impact compromises and no-coding your next years work in a week. Why would an employee do that?

Nextgrid 5y ago
To be fair, you can still make a VB6 (or <insert favourite desktop app framework here>) app. The problem is that for legitimate reasons, most of the processing no longer happens on the client device, so there’s suddenly a lot more complexity. Making a desktop app that owns its data and is its the sole user is still easy. But most business requirements nowadays want a consumer product where people can interact with a subset of the data with a web UI or mobile app. That’s where the complexity comes in compared to VB6.

mtberatwork 5y ago

> Just continue the thought: if CRUD is so easy, but money can be made then it will be automated away by frameworks or even commercial products. So less people will be needed and hence people will lose their jobs. CRUD are just the basic backend operations for persisting data and frameworks provide the facilities to make this happen. Processing web forms via CRUD operations is just a subset of backend development. Companies hire software engineers to solve domain problems which are unique to the company and/or industry. Eventually things will get automated away where they can but there will always be new domain problems to work on for the foreseeable future. > 25 years ago, you could earn a lot of money by simply creating basic websites for people. This has become much easier/faster to do now, but making a lot of money with it has gotten much harder as well. No, 25 years ago no one was making money designing websites. In the late nineties, web sites were often just cobbled together by whomever in the company took an interest in the new medium. Also, aside from some outliers perhaps, no one was making the kind of salaries engineers can get these days.

Nextgrid 5y ago

Well, 80% of my job is CRUD. But the 20% remaining is custom logic attached to some objects being modified. That’s where the money is made and what prevents it from being automated away entirely.