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Humans didn’t invent mathematics, it’s what the world is made of

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
0xdeadb00f 5y ago
In regards to the headline, I've voiced this opinion online (math is "what the world is made of") and was met with a reply that said something along the lines of "math isn't what the reality is made of, it's what we use to explain it". I'm not sure if I agree or not. Because I'm of the belief that everything (as in, "reality") can be explained or with mathematics. and if it can't, then we just haven't figured that kind of mathematics yet.
- plmpsu 5y ago
  The hard problem of consciousness would like a word.
- r721 5y ago
  In case you missed this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothes... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Mathematical_Universe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Mathematical_Universe
  - 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
    Thanks I have not heard of either of these!
beardyw 5y ago
If mathematicians could define a workable alternate universe defined by different principles I suppose they could then argue that our universe is defined by the maths we know. Not sure if anyone has tried.
- cevi 5y ago
  The Game of Life on an infinite grid, starting from a uniformly random pattern (i.e. each cell is either alive or dead with probability 1/2), gives you a whole multiverse which is governed by rules different from our own which probably contains intelligent life somewhere within it. Is that what you are looking for, or are you instead asking for an alternate universe where the rules of mathematics itself (or possibly even logic) are different? There are mathematical models of alternate universes where math and logic don't work, in the sense that a person living in those universes would easily prove that 1 = 0 from the Peano axioms (and would presumably give up on either the Peano axioms or first-order logic as a result). These mathematical models are uncomputable (so we can't actually simulate one like we can with the Game of Life), but they can be defined unambiguously and could even be simulated if we had access to a halting oracle. But even these alternate universes where math doesn't work are still built out of math - it's hard to even imagine a model of something which isn't built out of math.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

In regards to the headline, I've voiced this opinion online (math is "what the world is made of") and was met with a reply that said something along the lines of "math isn't what the reality is made of, it's what we use to explain it". I'm not sure if I agree or not. Because I'm of the belief that everything (as in, "reality") can be explained or with mathematics. and if it can't, then we just haven't figured that kind of mathematics yet.

plmpsu 5y ago
The hard problem of consciousness would like a word.
r721 5y ago
In case you missed this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothes... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Mathematical_Universe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Mathematical_Universe
- 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
  Thanks I have not heard of either of these!

beardyw 5y ago

If mathematicians could define a workable alternate universe defined by different principles I suppose they could then argue that our universe is defined by the maths we know. Not sure if anyone has tried.

cevi 5y ago
The Game of Life on an infinite grid, starting from a uniformly random pattern (i.e. each cell is either alive or dead with probability 1/2), gives you a whole multiverse which is governed by rules different from our own which probably contains intelligent life somewhere within it. Is that what you are looking for, or are you instead asking for an alternate universe where the rules of mathematics itself (or possibly even logic) are different? There are mathematical models of alternate universes where math and logic don't work, in the sense that a person living in those universes would easily prove that 1 = 0 from the Peano axioms (and would presumably give up on either the Peano axioms or first-order logic as a result). These mathematical models are uncomputable (so we can't actually simulate one like we can with the Game of Life), but they can be defined unambiguously and could even be simulated if we had access to a halting oracle. But even these alternate universes where math doesn't work are still built out of math - it's hard to even imagine a model of something which isn't built out of math.