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It’s the official shift from “we can lift everyone up” to “we need to hold everyone down”. It wasn’t that long ago the California was touting the success of Al

It’s the official shift from “we can lift everyone up” to “we need to hold everyone down”. It wasn’t that long ago the California was touting the success of Algebra for everyone in 8th grade.

RyJones 5y ago
in this timeline, we are all Harrison Bergeron.
- WillPostForFood 5y ago
  Both policies were an elaborate dance to avoid the reality that different kids have different needs and abilities.
  - ajmurmann 5y ago
    Germany solved this by past 4 years of primary school having three different advanced schools that prepare for different types of careers and that have different durations. That's in addition to having AP classes towards the end. It has the downside that it disadvantages late developing children, but there are also ways to continue at the higher schools if you do really well. Making the jump is harder though. I think this is a decent trade-off between going slower for some kids and holding others back who could go faster and more advanced.
TimTheTinker 5y ago
This "single standard" to me is like outlawing adjustable seats in cars. In the UK, they start separating students into separate tracks around 8th grade. Some will excel in math and science, so give them the opportunity to really go for it and take hard classes. Others will excel in other areas. But if everyone is lumped together in the same bucket and forced into the same mold, the average student's highest level of achievement across all subjects goes significantly down.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Get labelled incorrectly in grade 8 and get shutout of any advanced math/science classes which disqualifies you from a good university program.
  - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    Could be worse… could be the (pre-1976) Eleven-Plus Exam…
    - Starlevel001 5y ago
      In the South East they still do the 11+.
  - TimTheTinker 5y ago
    Agreed, that would suck. Maybe allow retesting in the following grade if the student feels they've been mislabeled?
  - labster 5y ago
    But isn’t it unfair to saddle minorities with more generational debt by getting them to attend universities? I’m being snarky here but also legitimately asking. My student loan payments resume in a month because Biden doesn’t care about non-Boomers.
  - tremon 5y ago
    And you know this because you've seen it happen? In NL, pre-selection happens at 12 years but actual specialisation doesn't happen until 15 years old. That's three years for children to switch tracks, try things and see what works best for them. And even then, students can pursue an upgrade track after graduation that would still grant them access to university at the cost of an extra year of secondary schooling (which also gives them an extra year of maturity, which often also helps). I don't know how it is in the UK, but your comment strikes me as a typical boogieman from someone who hasn't actually seen the system in action.
  - BarkMore 5y ago
dragonwriter 5y ago
> It’s the official shift from “we can lift everyone up” to “we need to hold everyone down”. No, its based on empirical evidence that the way things were done previously holds everyone down, and they should be done differently if you want to lift everyone up. Educational approaches are technologies, and old familiar technologies are, often, just not as good at their purpose as newer ones.
- yeaman1231 5y ago
  what evidence and what data? I studied math in Syria and was doing Calculus at 8th grade, came to the states and was forced to redo basic algebra. Do you know how soul crushing it is to redo those classes? edit: I dont understand how poor war-torn countries can have a better educational system than the most developed country in the world.
  - wara23arish 5y ago
    I can echo your sentiment. Came from Lebanon and was surprised by how little math people knew here from high school. Ahla fik khayye :)
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  How does the current system hold everyone down?
- csa 5y ago
  > No, its based on empirical evidence that the way things were done previously holds everyone down Could you expand on this? On the surface, I agree. The curriculum that is pervasive in contemporary high schools was developed at a time when few people (~5%, iirc) went to high school and most of those who did went to tertiary education or white collar support jobs. That said, this may not be the direction you mean.
nefitty 5y ago
Looking out from this moment in history, if I wanted to prepare someone for the future, STEM wouldn't be the main focus. I know it's anathema to say. In a world where computers fold proteins and predict programmer's intentions, the value of technical knowledge is showing decay. In the world we're hurtling toward, we don't need people who can recite the Pythagorean theorem. We need people who can cooperate with other humans, who can leverage technology to achieve their goals and who can evaluate information critically. Throw money at THOSE problems. Personally, I think the most devastating impact of COVID will prove to be the shift of younger people's focus from the social realm to the technical/virtual. Imagine an entire generation specialized in playing Minecraft, making YouTube videos and scripting Python Discord bots... All the while, AI embeds deeper in government, gains control of resource production and perfects the mechanisms of social control. I could not have designed a simulation with the goal of a cyberpunk outcome, better. High tech, low life. Hey, at least I know how to do long division in my apartment, alone.
- geomark 5y ago
  I would say a strong counter to your argument is that Covid highlighted the need for much better STEM education, because of how painfully obvious it was that so many do not understand "the science". That's in quotes because that's the phrase that was bandied about so often.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    > I would say a strong counter to your argument is that Covid highlighted the need for much better STEM education, because of how painfully obvious it was that so many do not understand "the science". I'd argue that information literacy is more important. I know plenty of STEM-credentialed people who might have insight into their narrow STEM field, but are effectively data illiterate when it comes to evaluating data that's from outside of their field of expertise. Even then, I don't think the majority of the people that COVID exposed as "not understanding the science" really don't understand it. It's just that they don't care. We're mistaking their lack of giving a shit about the truth for a genuine misunderstanding of the science.
systemvoltage 5y ago
This undertone exists in to pretty much all liberal polices. For example, instead of making more energy, we have power cuts like a third world nation. We could instead build solar farms and nuclear energy, but California (and largely progressives) want shittier world for themselves. Wanna inspire people with values of perseverance and hard work? Nope, that’s not allowed. Want to eliminate homelessness? Nope, too ambitious. There isn’t a single public park in Oakland where homelessness isn’t rampant. Basically, the entire thinking is about regression, not progression. I only vote for Democrats because the alternative is worse. But it’s becoming harder.

RyJones 5y ago

in this timeline, we are all Harrison Bergeron.

WillPostForFood 5y ago
Both policies were an elaborate dance to avoid the reality that different kids have different needs and abilities.
- ajmurmann 5y ago
  Germany solved this by past 4 years of primary school having three different advanced schools that prepare for different types of careers and that have different durations. That's in addition to having AP classes towards the end. It has the downside that it disadvantages late developing children, but there are also ways to continue at the higher schools if you do really well. Making the jump is harder though. I think this is a decent trade-off between going slower for some kids and holding others back who could go faster and more advanced.

TimTheTinker 5y ago

This "single standard" to me is like outlawing adjustable seats in cars. In the UK, they start separating students into separate tracks around 8th grade. Some will excel in math and science, so give them the opportunity to really go for it and take hard classes. Others will excel in other areas. But if everyone is lumped together in the same bucket and forced into the same mold, the average student's highest level of achievement across all subjects goes significantly down.

ipaddr 5y ago
Get labelled incorrectly in grade 8 and get shutout of any advanced math/science classes which disqualifies you from a good university program.
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  Could be worse… could be the (pre-1976) Eleven-Plus Exam…
  - Starlevel001 5y ago
    In the South East they still do the 11+.
- TimTheTinker 5y ago
  Agreed, that would suck. Maybe allow retesting in the following grade if the student feels they've been mislabeled?
- labster 5y ago
  But isn’t it unfair to saddle minorities with more generational debt by getting them to attend universities? I’m being snarky here but also legitimately asking. My student loan payments resume in a month because Biden doesn’t care about non-Boomers.
- tremon 5y ago
  And you know this because you've seen it happen? In NL, pre-selection happens at 12 years but actual specialisation doesn't happen until 15 years old. That's three years for children to switch tracks, try things and see what works best for them. And even then, students can pursue an upgrade track after graduation that would still grant them access to university at the cost of an extra year of secondary schooling (which also gives them an extra year of maturity, which often also helps). I don't know how it is in the UK, but your comment strikes me as a typical boogieman from someone who hasn't actually seen the system in action.
- BarkMore 5y ago

dragonwriter 5y ago

> It’s the official shift from “we can lift everyone up” to “we need to hold everyone down”. No, its based on empirical evidence that the way things were done previously holds everyone down, and they should be done differently if you want to lift everyone up. Educational approaches are technologies, and old familiar technologies are, often, just not as good at their purpose as newer ones.

yeaman1231 5y ago
what evidence and what data? I studied math in Syria and was doing Calculus at 8th grade, came to the states and was forced to redo basic algebra. Do you know how soul crushing it is to redo those classes? edit: I dont understand how poor war-torn countries can have a better educational system than the most developed country in the world.
- wara23arish 5y ago
  I can echo your sentiment. Came from Lebanon and was surprised by how little math people knew here from high school. Ahla fik khayye :)
_-david-_ 5y ago
How does the current system hold everyone down?
csa 5y ago
> No, its based on empirical evidence that the way things were done previously holds everyone down Could you expand on this? On the surface, I agree. The curriculum that is pervasive in contemporary high schools was developed at a time when few people (~5%, iirc) went to high school and most of those who did went to tertiary education or white collar support jobs. That said, this may not be the direction you mean.

nefitty 5y ago

Looking out from this moment in history, if I wanted to prepare someone for the future, STEM wouldn't be the main focus. I know it's anathema to say. In a world where computers fold proteins and predict programmer's intentions, the value of technical knowledge is showing decay. In the world we're hurtling toward, we don't need people who can recite the Pythagorean theorem. We need people who can cooperate with other humans, who can leverage technology to achieve their goals and who can evaluate information critically. Throw money at THOSE problems. Personally, I think the most devastating impact of COVID will prove to be the shift of younger people's focus from the social realm to the technical/virtual. Imagine an entire generation specialized in playing Minecraft, making YouTube videos and scripting Python Discord bots... All the while, AI embeds deeper in government, gains control of resource production and perfects the mechanisms of social control. I could not have designed a simulation with the goal of a cyberpunk outcome, better. High tech, low life. Hey, at least I know how to do long division in my apartment, alone.

geomark 5y ago
I would say a strong counter to your argument is that Covid highlighted the need for much better STEM education, because of how painfully obvious it was that so many do not understand "the science". That's in quotes because that's the phrase that was bandied about so often.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  > I would say a strong counter to your argument is that Covid highlighted the need for much better STEM education, because of how painfully obvious it was that so many do not understand "the science". I'd argue that information literacy is more important. I know plenty of STEM-credentialed people who might have insight into their narrow STEM field, but are effectively data illiterate when it comes to evaluating data that's from outside of their field of expertise. Even then, I don't think the majority of the people that COVID exposed as "not understanding the science" really don't understand it. It's just that they don't care. We're mistaking their lack of giving a shit about the truth for a genuine misunderstanding of the science.

systemvoltage 5y ago

This undertone exists in to pretty much all liberal polices. For example, instead of making more energy, we have power cuts like a third world nation. We could instead build solar farms and nuclear energy, but California (and largely progressives) want shittier world for themselves. Wanna inspire people with values of perseverance and hard work? Nope, that’s not allowed. Want to eliminate homelessness? Nope, too ambitious. There isn’t a single public park in Oakland where homelessness isn’t rampant. Basically, the entire thinking is about regression, not progression. I only vote for Democrats because the alternative is worse. But it’s becoming harder.