5 ms·

I'm confused. So... someone figured out that you can use cc65 to compile C code for the C64, and then he stuck it into an Emscripten version of VICE and put it

I'm confused. So... someone figured out that you can use cc65 to compile C code for the C64, and then he stuck it into an Emscripten version of VICE and put it on the web? I can click on "run" and it looks like it's compiling the two programs, puts them on a floppy, and then runs VICE with that floppy... What's the point of this? I can see the source code when I click on "show files", but I cannot edit anything, I think I'm obviously missing something here... how is that an IDE? Or is the IDE running inside VICE and I can load it somehow? Can someone enlighten me?

flohofwoe 5y ago
Does it even run locally via WASM? It feels a bit too slow for that. Here's an alternative though that's a bit closer to an "IDE experience": https://8bitworkshop.com/v3.8.0/?platform=c64&file=hello.dasm https://8bitworkshop.com/v3.8.0/?platform=c64&file=hello.das...
flerovium 5y ago
Similarly confused. This seems to be running on a remote box, but: (1) How is the information is getting to the frontend? (2) How is it being rendered when it gets there? (3) What is being run on the box?
- 19wintersp 5y ago
  1. The information gets from the VM to you through a custom WebSocket protocol called Goval (you can see the JS client at https://github.com/replit/crosis https://github.com/replit/crosis). It can do editing, console I/O, VNC, configuration of the image, etc. 2. The console is rendered with xterm.js, the desktop is a VNC client. 3. Not sure what you mean
  - flerovium 5y ago
    1. Yes, but, what is actually happening on the box? 2. I doubt this is xterm.js. The font and text to not appear to be aligned columns/rows like an xterm session. (Compare the outer emulator font sizing and the inner x64 font sizing.) 3. The croisis protocol says, "x protobuf for vague 1-sentence description", but this does not actually specify the behavior of the backend--and you can't read the source.
    - 19wintersp 5y ago
      1. I'm assuming by "the box" you mean the VM. It gets started for you when you run the repl as a user who does not own it, and it will run a command specified in a configuration file (see https://docs.replit.com/programming-ide/configuring-run-button https://docs.replit.com/programming-ide/configuring-run-butt...) and send you the output, as well as let you provide input. It will also detect the run program doing things such as starting to listen on ports (which will be forwarded to a public URL (only under certain circumstances (this is a bit confusing and a bit broken (I don't fully understand it)))) or opening X sessions, in which case it will start the VNC connection to your client. Other than that, it's fairly simple; just think of it as a VM running in the cloud, connected to you, and running a program specified by the creator. 2. I'm almost 100% sure that it's xterm.js, though to be clear I say that it is used to render the console that you briefly see whilst it is compiling. The desktop - which is how you are seeing the emulator window - is provided by a VNC client. 3. Replit is largely closed-source, unfortunately. The protocol is just the way in which the Replit IDE and client communicate with the VMs on the backend. I've summarised some of the behaviour of the backend in my other comment, most of which is known through messages or posts from their engineers. By that summary, it means that the protocol is Protobuf-based. If you want to see a sample of the stuff it sends to the server, you can open a repl you own, append `?debug=1` to the end of the URL, and click the alien logo on the left.
      - flerovium 5y ago
        2. Ok, it's not xterm. What is the VNC server/client? I don't see on in the code. When you use replit, what will cause it to trigger a magic VNC client? What if I want to try a different VNC server to speed it up? When will the VNC close...there's a lot of magic that I as a developer can't really work with and doesn't seem to be documented. AFAICT, this demo is equivalent to, "someone ran VICE in a VNC". I think that's the OP's point. It isn't even clear what VNC (or what its performance profile is).
        piemadd 5y ago
        1. it is xterm, xterm.js to be sepcific 2. uses no-vnc. if you own the repl theres a way to set the vnc server password and access from your own client, but i forget how. probably on the replit docs/blog
19wintersp 5y ago
It's a read-only "IDE" of sorts; it's effectively a disk image stored in the cloud, which when run will create a VM and send the output back to you. If you create an account, you can fork that repl to create your own editable version of it, and access the full IDE.
- flerovium 5y ago
  Yes, but, to quote Paul Buchheit, how does it *actually* work? What is the non-handwave-y explanation? > "IDE" of sorts...*effectively* a disk image...a VM (what kind?)
  - 19wintersp 5y ago
    If you want a fuller explanation, I'll just ramble about some random bits. Replit will let you create an account, with which you can create "repls": on their own, they are the "disk images" I mentioned; they store files and a few other bits on Replit's servers. You can open this repl if you own it, and edit it in the in-browser (Monaco-based) IDE. Because you own it, Replit will spin up a VM on its servers to handle your session. Your changes sync in real-time with the permanent files in the repl, as well as the live (and ephemeral) filesystem of the VM. All of this happens over the WebSocket-based protocol I mentioned. What you're seeing with this post's link is a repl owned by someone else; in such a case, you see the "Spotlight View", which is read-only. You can fork it to create your own copy of the repl, which you can edit. The list of files is a read-only view of the repl's files. When you run it, it'll spin up a VM similarly to how it does for you with the IDE. The VM I've been mentioning is a restricted Docker container running on some GCP container instances, managed by Replit. It runs Ubuntu 20.04 LTS (I think) if that's what you want to know. The desktop you see when you run this post's link is a VNC connection to a Fluxbox desktop on the VM. The console is sent from the VM to your browser (again, all of this is over that WebSocket protocol) and rendered by xterm.js. Overall it's a bit of a messy system, and there's quite a few other things not mentioned; they'll occasionally talk about this on the blog (https://blog.replit.com/ https://blog.replit.com/). If you want something more specific explaining, I'll probably do a better job at that.
pwrrr 5y ago
Same. It is very slow, and I can't figure out how to do anyhting useful.

flohofwoe 5y ago

Does it even run locally via WASM? It feels a bit too slow for that. Here's an alternative though that's a bit closer to an "IDE experience": https://8bitworkshop.com/v3.8.0/?platform=c64&file=hello.dasm https://8bitworkshop.com/v3.8.0/?platform=c64&file=hello.das...

flerovium 5y ago

Similarly confused. This seems to be running on a remote box, but: (1) How is the information is getting to the frontend? (2) How is it being rendered when it gets there? (3) What is being run on the box?

19wintersp 5y ago
1. The information gets from the VM to you through a custom WebSocket protocol called Goval (you can see the JS client at https://github.com/replit/crosis https://github.com/replit/crosis). It can do editing, console I/O, VNC, configuration of the image, etc. 2. The console is rendered with xterm.js, the desktop is a VNC client. 3. Not sure what you mean
- flerovium 5y ago
  1. Yes, but, what is actually happening on the box? 2. I doubt this is xterm.js. The font and text to not appear to be aligned columns/rows like an xterm session. (Compare the outer emulator font sizing and the inner x64 font sizing.) 3. The croisis protocol says, "x protobuf for vague 1-sentence description", but this does not actually specify the behavior of the backend--and you can't read the source.
  - 19wintersp 5y ago
    1. I'm assuming by "the box" you mean the VM. It gets started for you when you run the repl as a user who does not own it, and it will run a command specified in a configuration file (see https://docs.replit.com/programming-ide/configuring-run-button https://docs.replit.com/programming-ide/configuring-run-butt...) and send you the output, as well as let you provide input. It will also detect the run program doing things such as starting to listen on ports (which will be forwarded to a public URL (only under certain circumstances (this is a bit confusing and a bit broken (I don't fully understand it)))) or opening X sessions, in which case it will start the VNC connection to your client. Other than that, it's fairly simple; just think of it as a VM running in the cloud, connected to you, and running a program specified by the creator. 2. I'm almost 100% sure that it's xterm.js, though to be clear I say that it is used to render the console that you briefly see whilst it is compiling. The desktop - which is how you are seeing the emulator window - is provided by a VNC client. 3. Replit is largely closed-source, unfortunately. The protocol is just the way in which the Replit IDE and client communicate with the VMs on the backend. I've summarised some of the behaviour of the backend in my other comment, most of which is known through messages or posts from their engineers. By that summary, it means that the protocol is Protobuf-based. If you want to see a sample of the stuff it sends to the server, you can open a repl you own, append `?debug=1` to the end of the URL, and click the alien logo on the left.
    - flerovium 5y ago
      2. Ok, it's not xterm. What is the VNC server/client? I don't see on in the code. When you use replit, what will cause it to trigger a magic VNC client? What if I want to try a different VNC server to speed it up? When will the VNC close...there's a lot of magic that I as a developer can't really work with and doesn't seem to be documented. AFAICT, this demo is equivalent to, "someone ran VICE in a VNC". I think that's the OP's point. It isn't even clear what VNC (or what its performance profile is).
      - piemadd 5y ago
        1. it is xterm, xterm.js to be sepcific 2. uses no-vnc. if you own the repl theres a way to set the vnc server password and access from your own client, but i forget how. probably on the replit docs/blog

19wintersp 5y ago

It's a read-only "IDE" of sorts; it's effectively a disk image stored in the cloud, which when run will create a VM and send the output back to you. If you create an account, you can fork that repl to create your own editable version of it, and access the full IDE.

flerovium 5y ago
Yes, but, to quote Paul Buchheit, how does it *actually* work? What is the non-handwave-y explanation? > "IDE" of sorts...*effectively* a disk image...a VM (what kind?)
- 19wintersp 5y ago
  If you want a fuller explanation, I'll just ramble about some random bits. Replit will let you create an account, with which you can create "repls": on their own, they are the "disk images" I mentioned; they store files and a few other bits on Replit's servers. You can open this repl if you own it, and edit it in the in-browser (Monaco-based) IDE. Because you own it, Replit will spin up a VM on its servers to handle your session. Your changes sync in real-time with the permanent files in the repl, as well as the live (and ephemeral) filesystem of the VM. All of this happens over the WebSocket-based protocol I mentioned. What you're seeing with this post's link is a repl owned by someone else; in such a case, you see the "Spotlight View", which is read-only. You can fork it to create your own copy of the repl, which you can edit. The list of files is a read-only view of the repl's files. When you run it, it'll spin up a VM similarly to how it does for you with the IDE. The VM I've been mentioning is a restricted Docker container running on some GCP container instances, managed by Replit. It runs Ubuntu 20.04 LTS (I think) if that's what you want to know. The desktop you see when you run this post's link is a VNC connection to a Fluxbox desktop on the VM. The console is sent from the VM to your browser (again, all of this is over that WebSocket protocol) and rendered by xterm.js. Overall it's a bit of a messy system, and there's quite a few other things not mentioned; they'll occasionally talk about this on the blog (https://blog.replit.com/ https://blog.replit.com/). If you want something more specific explaining, I'll probably do a better job at that.

pwrrr 5y ago

Same. It is very slow, and I can't figure out how to do anyhting useful.