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It's a joke about how universities have become administratively bloated and primarily function as a very expensive resort community for 18-22 year olds. To "com

It's a joke about how universities have become administratively bloated and primarily function as a very expensive resort community for 18-22 year olds. To "compete" with each other, universities hire increase numbers of administrators whose job is to build out a more complete "college experience", including fancier gyms catering to modern exercise trends (aka climbing walls).

LudwigNagasena 5y ago
> universities have become administratively bloated and primarily function as a very expensive resort community for 18-22 year olds The worse thing is that people seem to really enjoy it. Every time I have a discussion on it with someone I inevitably hear arguments like “it was such a formative experience”, “university is not only for studying” and so on. It’s really crazy that a huge part of the population is convinced that pouring thousands of money into an overpriced 4 year holiday should be a societal norm.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  On the flip side, if people are invariably reporting that it changed their life and shaped their perspective of the world, who are you to say that the money was wasted or the experience was overpriced? What exactly is the fair market rate for a formative experience?
  - zhdc1 5y ago
    > On the flip side, if people are invariably reporting that it changed their life and shaped their perspective of the world, who are you to say that the money was wasted or the experience was overpriced? What exactly is the fair market rate for a formative experience? Is there any reason to believe that university is any less formative outside of the states?
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      Your reply to me is a little vague, so I'm going to go ahead and make the argument I think you're making implicitly, and you can tell me if I'm wrong: Universities overseas are less expensive than in the US, yet the experience is the same, therefore US universities are overpriced. That's certainly a valid point. But really what I'm trying to get at here is that calling someone else's experience "overpriced", when the premise is they have self reported that the experience was "formative", is more a statement of one's own values than a fair assessment of the actual experience of that individual. For example for some it's maybe not be overpriced because of scholarships and aid. Or it may not be overpriced because they're rich. Or it may not be overpriced because there are actually very many reasonably priced colleges out there in the USA. Everyone's experience is different, and reducing the entirety of the college experience into "an overpriced 4 year holiday" takes all the nuance out of the issue. And you know what, despite all the disparaging talk here about college being a "holiday" and a "resort", we really do work these kids hard, at least at my institution. These young minds are out there doing incredible work, engaging in the community, creating art, and doing actual research that will change the world one day. I'm not saying these things aren't going on outside of academic institutions, but there is an endless supply of creative energy and intellectual curiosity on college campuses, and that is an important resource for society. I don't know of any other institution that fosters and grows such a concentrated level of achievement at such a young age. Corporations don't do it. Governments don't do it. Local towns don't do it. Churches don't do it. Academia is where people go to explore new ideas and find themselves. Some, especially here on HN, scoff at the idea, but really it leads to magic, and it's hard to deny that.
      - zhdc1 5y ago
        > I'm not saying these things aren't going on outside of academic institutions, but there is an endless supply of creative energy and intellectual curiosity on college campuses, and that is an important resource for society. I'm not arguing against the value of a university education. My point, which you acknowledge, is that the rest of the world manage to educate their students, while providing a similarly formative experience, without costing the equivalent of a year's salary or more for each year of education. > But really what I'm trying to get at here is that calling someone else's experience "overpriced", when the premise is they have self reported that the experience was "formative", is more a statement of one's own values than a fair assessment of the actual experience of that individual. I'm challenging whether those same students would have received a less formative experience without luxury dormitories, catered meal plans, or unused rock climbing walls. This is a very valid question, and while it's impossible to prove counterfactuals, one good thought experiment would be to ask whether a student who graduated from a first tier public research university in 1990 or 2000 received any less of an education or formative experience than a student who graduated in 2020. After controlling for advancements in technology and pedagogy, I'm not sure you can answer yes to this. And if you can, I'm not sure you can attribute whatever benefits to the miscellaneous luxuries they currently have access to.
- chiefofgxbxl 5y ago
  What's genuinely odd is that universities offer something of value that towns and (small) cities should be able to: providing anyone (not just students) a human experience. I do agree with you that there are societal norms to dump large sums of money into college, but will also point out that many of the things people enjoy from their college experience are things that are - in my judgment - becoming increasingly difficult to find in American society: namely, being able to form social connections that are deeper than the measly platitudes and shallow experience of water-cooler conversations at work. The fact that colleges are able to command tens of thousands of dollars per year should tell us something about what their campuses are offering that general society and its structure is unable to provide.
  - least 5y ago
    > The fact that colleges are able to command tens of thousands of dollars per year should tell us something about what their campuses are offering that general society and its structure is unable to provide. They provide a piece of paper at the end that puts you an edge up above the people that cannot attend for one reason or another in the job market, which is going to be a part of your life for the next 40 years or so.

LudwigNagasena 5y ago

> universities have become administratively bloated and primarily function as a very expensive resort community for 18-22 year olds The worse thing is that people seem to really enjoy it. Every time I have a discussion on it with someone I inevitably hear arguments like “it was such a formative experience”, “university is not only for studying” and so on. It’s really crazy that a huge part of the population is convinced that pouring thousands of money into an overpriced 4 year holiday should be a societal norm.

ModernMech 5y ago
On the flip side, if people are invariably reporting that it changed their life and shaped their perspective of the world, who are you to say that the money was wasted or the experience was overpriced? What exactly is the fair market rate for a formative experience?
- zhdc1 5y ago
  > On the flip side, if people are invariably reporting that it changed their life and shaped their perspective of the world, who are you to say that the money was wasted or the experience was overpriced? What exactly is the fair market rate for a formative experience? Is there any reason to believe that university is any less formative outside of the states?
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    Your reply to me is a little vague, so I'm going to go ahead and make the argument I think you're making implicitly, and you can tell me if I'm wrong: Universities overseas are less expensive than in the US, yet the experience is the same, therefore US universities are overpriced. That's certainly a valid point. But really what I'm trying to get at here is that calling someone else's experience "overpriced", when the premise is they have self reported that the experience was "formative", is more a statement of one's own values than a fair assessment of the actual experience of that individual. For example for some it's maybe not be overpriced because of scholarships and aid. Or it may not be overpriced because they're rich. Or it may not be overpriced because there are actually very many reasonably priced colleges out there in the USA. Everyone's experience is different, and reducing the entirety of the college experience into "an overpriced 4 year holiday" takes all the nuance out of the issue. And you know what, despite all the disparaging talk here about college being a "holiday" and a "resort", we really do work these kids hard, at least at my institution. These young minds are out there doing incredible work, engaging in the community, creating art, and doing actual research that will change the world one day. I'm not saying these things aren't going on outside of academic institutions, but there is an endless supply of creative energy and intellectual curiosity on college campuses, and that is an important resource for society. I don't know of any other institution that fosters and grows such a concentrated level of achievement at such a young age. Corporations don't do it. Governments don't do it. Local towns don't do it. Churches don't do it. Academia is where people go to explore new ideas and find themselves. Some, especially here on HN, scoff at the idea, but really it leads to magic, and it's hard to deny that.
    - zhdc1 5y ago
      > I'm not saying these things aren't going on outside of academic institutions, but there is an endless supply of creative energy and intellectual curiosity on college campuses, and that is an important resource for society. I'm not arguing against the value of a university education. My point, which you acknowledge, is that the rest of the world manage to educate their students, while providing a similarly formative experience, without costing the equivalent of a year's salary or more for each year of education. > But really what I'm trying to get at here is that calling someone else's experience "overpriced", when the premise is they have self reported that the experience was "formative", is more a statement of one's own values than a fair assessment of the actual experience of that individual. I'm challenging whether those same students would have received a less formative experience without luxury dormitories, catered meal plans, or unused rock climbing walls. This is a very valid question, and while it's impossible to prove counterfactuals, one good thought experiment would be to ask whether a student who graduated from a first tier public research university in 1990 or 2000 received any less of an education or formative experience than a student who graduated in 2020. After controlling for advancements in technology and pedagogy, I'm not sure you can answer yes to this. And if you can, I'm not sure you can attribute whatever benefits to the miscellaneous luxuries they currently have access to.
chiefofgxbxl 5y ago
What's genuinely odd is that universities offer something of value that towns and (small) cities should be able to: providing anyone (not just students) a human experience. I do agree with you that there are societal norms to dump large sums of money into college, but will also point out that many of the things people enjoy from their college experience are things that are - in my judgment - becoming increasingly difficult to find in American society: namely, being able to form social connections that are deeper than the measly platitudes and shallow experience of water-cooler conversations at work. The fact that colleges are able to command tens of thousands of dollars per year should tell us something about what their campuses are offering that general society and its structure is unable to provide.
- least 5y ago
  > The fact that colleges are able to command tens of thousands of dollars per year should tell us something about what their campuses are offering that general society and its structure is unable to provide. They provide a piece of paper at the end that puts you an edge up above the people that cannot attend for one reason or another in the job market, which is going to be a part of your life for the next 40 years or so.