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Facebook can pursue malware lawsuit against Israel's NSO Group -US appeals court

136 points by nceqs3 5y ago

kingcharles 5y ago
Here's the actual ruling from the court: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21100675/ninth-circuit-nso-group.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21100675/ninth-circui... Also relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29320986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29320986 (Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware)
barcoder 5y ago
Surprised NSO Group hasn't already rolled over like Cambridge Analytica
- tyingq 5y ago
  Maybe some protection based on venue? I don't know how much of NSO Group's assets/customers/etc are exposed to US courts. Maybe Isreal is more willing to protect NSO Group than the UK was willing to protect Cambridge Analytica.
  - polyomino 5y ago
    NSO group actually produced something that seems to work. In retrospect, Cambridge Analytica was overhyped and largely ineffective: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica#Assessment_of_impact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica#Assessment...
stefan_ 5y ago
What was even the endgame here? If you successfully claim you were acting as an agent of a foreign government (many of them, in fact!), surely that's the kinda line of thought that ends with your employees arrested at every airport and border? Why is this even in civil court. How can the CEO of this company be in the US at the same time as his company is put on the sanctions list and still board an airplane out of the country after? Why are banks discussing with the sanctioned entity how to best unroll their debts?
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  It is in civil court because politicians are scared of doing anything other than giving Israel billions
- jerrysievert 5y ago
  it's fairly common, as far as I've seen - at least in Portland when Saudi citizens are released on bail they seem to disappear. https://www.oregonlive.com/news/erry-2018/12/9b5b1eff724150/he-was-accused-of-killing-a-po.html https://www.oregonlive.com/news/erry-2018/12/9b5b1eff724150/...
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  There's nothing done against being the agent of a foreign allied government. If they were doing this for the Chinese or the Russians they'd be arrested. The law against foreign government agents is applied incredibly arbitrarily.
tipoftheiceberg 5y ago
Am I the only one surprised these FB & Apple NSO lawsuits are just now happening? Perhaps it just takes times to build a case for court?
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  ProPublica should probably get credit. Even if the companies knew before their reporting, the publicity surely spurred them to act.
- stefan_ 5y ago
  The Facebook lawsuit is older, hence why you are reading the judgement on an appeal of an appeal or something in that order. The timing on the Apple lawsuit is probably no accident; now that this "foreign state actor immunity" fig leaf is out of the way, the original lawsuit can proceed full speed ahead and is likely going to be fatal to NSO. I wouldn't be surprised if any victims of theirs similarly sue them.
- dkobia 5y ago
  It seems to me that this is the sort of thing that is sorted out between governments first - diplomatically. I am certain the lines between the NSO Group and the Israeli govt are pretty blurry considering they came out of the Israeli Intelligence Corps. If it weren’t an ally this would almost certainly be considered nation state actor activity eg Internet Research Agency.
fma 5y ago
OK I mean what's stopping NSO from dissolving and coming back as...NS0. Freeze their assets and Israel just injects more money. Put travel restrictions on their employees and Israel will issue new passports/identities. I see no reason or Israel to stop unless the US government gets involved. Even then they'll continue what they're doing, except VPN into Russia.
- foobiekr 5y ago
  Can someone help me understand the downvotes? This is completely true.
  - underdeserver 5y ago
    It is not. Israel does not fund NSO in any way. They have clients.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
    "Never do anything ever because they'll just find a way around it" - HN
- pletsch 5y ago
  Could they go after the ownership group? Novalpina Capital is UK-based.
ttybird 5y ago
Tails should be able to sue Facebook then, right? https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/06/facebook_helped.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/06/facebook_help...
- onedognight 5y ago
  No, because FB, presumably, developed the tails exploit locally and never needed to interact with an external server to do so. FB passed the exploit to law enforcement. In the NSO case, they used FB’s servers as part of their exploit development and exploit distribution.
  - ttybird 5y ago
    Oh, fair enough. Still though, they should be able to sue them if Apple can sue NSO: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29320986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29320986

136 points by nceqs3 5y ago

Here's the actual ruling from the court: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21100675/ninth-circuit-nso-group.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21100675/ninth-circui... Also relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29320986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29320986 (Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware)

barcoder 5y ago

Surprised NSO Group hasn't already rolled over like Cambridge Analytica

tyingq 5y ago
Maybe some protection based on venue? I don't know how much of NSO Group's assets/customers/etc are exposed to US courts. Maybe Isreal is more willing to protect NSO Group than the UK was willing to protect Cambridge Analytica.
- polyomino 5y ago
  NSO group actually produced something that seems to work. In retrospect, Cambridge Analytica was overhyped and largely ineffective: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica#Assessment_of_impact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica#Assessment...

stefan_ 5y ago

What was even the endgame here? If you successfully claim you were acting as an agent of a foreign government (many of them, in fact!), surely that's the kinda line of thought that ends with your employees arrested at every airport and border? Why is this even in civil court. How can the CEO of this company be in the US at the same time as his company is put on the sanctions list and still board an airplane out of the country after? Why are banks discussing with the sanctioned entity how to best unroll their debts?

encryptluks2 5y ago
It is in civil court because politicians are scared of doing anything other than giving Israel billions
jerrysievert 5y ago
it's fairly common, as far as I've seen - at least in Portland when Saudi citizens are released on bail they seem to disappear. https://www.oregonlive.com/news/erry-2018/12/9b5b1eff724150/he-was-accused-of-killing-a-po.html https://www.oregonlive.com/news/erry-2018/12/9b5b1eff724150/...
sudosysgen 5y ago
There's nothing done against being the agent of a foreign allied government. If they were doing this for the Chinese or the Russians they'd be arrested. The law against foreign government agents is applied incredibly arbitrarily.

tipoftheiceberg 5y ago

Am I the only one surprised these FB & Apple NSO lawsuits are just now happening? Perhaps it just takes times to build a case for court?

bradleyjg 5y ago
ProPublica should probably get credit. Even if the companies knew before their reporting, the publicity surely spurred them to act.
stefan_ 5y ago
The Facebook lawsuit is older, hence why you are reading the judgement on an appeal of an appeal or something in that order. The timing on the Apple lawsuit is probably no accident; now that this "foreign state actor immunity" fig leaf is out of the way, the original lawsuit can proceed full speed ahead and is likely going to be fatal to NSO. I wouldn't be surprised if any victims of theirs similarly sue them.
dkobia 5y ago
It seems to me that this is the sort of thing that is sorted out between governments first - diplomatically. I am certain the lines between the NSO Group and the Israeli govt are pretty blurry considering they came out of the Israeli Intelligence Corps. If it weren’t an ally this would almost certainly be considered nation state actor activity eg Internet Research Agency.

fma 5y ago

OK I mean what's stopping NSO from dissolving and coming back as...NS0. Freeze their assets and Israel just injects more money. Put travel restrictions on their employees and Israel will issue new passports/identities. I see no reason or Israel to stop unless the US government gets involved. Even then they'll continue what they're doing, except VPN into Russia.

foobiekr 5y ago
Can someone help me understand the downvotes? This is completely true.
- underdeserver 5y ago
  It is not. Israel does not fund NSO in any way. They have clients.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
  "Never do anything ever because they'll just find a way around it" - HN
pletsch 5y ago
Could they go after the ownership group? Novalpina Capital is UK-based.

ttybird 5y ago

Tails should be able to sue Facebook then, right? https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/06/facebook_helped.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/06/facebook_help...

onedognight 5y ago
No, because FB, presumably, developed the tails exploit locally and never needed to interact with an external server to do so. FB passed the exploit to law enforcement. In the NSO case, they used FB’s servers as part of their exploit development and exploit distribution.
- ttybird 5y ago
  Oh, fair enough. Still though, they should be able to sue them if Apple can sue NSO: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29320986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29320986