5 ms·

my brother has vans sponsorship. he gets shirts and shoes, not money ;) you get my point?

nickff 5y ago
I agree that the word 'sponsorship' has been quite diluted, as you point out, but it should mean something more than 'be a customer of'. Do I sponsor my local sports team when I buy tickets to a game? Am I sponsoring Netflix by subscribing? Do I sponsor my local government by paying property taxes? On the flip side, does my government sponsor me by granting a driver's license?
- Sporktacular 5y ago
  I get bothered by the use of the term "nation-state" in this context. And I thought I was pedantic.
  - nickff 5y ago
    >"I get bothered by the use of the term "nation-state" in this context. And I thought I was pedantic. " I don't think I'm being pedantic, it seems like people use the word 'sponsor' in these contexts to exaggerate and vilify. Nobody seems to have used the word 'nation-state' in this post; what made you think of it?
    - Sporktacular 5y ago
      It's used throughout the comments and the topic generally. I don't call it out (for meaning a state with borders aligned with an ethnicity) because I get the point being made. As for sponsorship, states sponsor their industries by providing labor trained at public expense, promoting them abroad through trade agreements, access to trade representation etc. so there is the technical definition of sponsorship met. The revolving door between Unit 8200 and surveillance startups is documented as is Israel's courting of KSA and the UAE with access to intelligence sharing and capabilities as a bargaining chip. And why wouldn't they? It's good for the state and its industry. Just sucks for everyone else. The definition of sponsorship doesn't matter when it is met in every sense of the word.
      - montblanc 5y ago
        > Just sucks for everyone else Not necessarily. I assume you mean it fortifies despot regimes in the Middle East right? I no longer think at this time there is any sane alternative.
        Sporktacular 5y ago
        Because that's worked out so well until now. So may as well make a little cash on the side of it, eh? Do you think the path to end tyranny was so smooth in developed countries? Think back through Western revolutionary history and now immediately forget the name of every leader the moment you think of them - because that's what's happening, right now, in these countries at this exact stage of their political development. The technology now exists to make effective popular resistance impossible. Every possible rebellion strangled at birth. Every potential leader, every sympathetic journalist, religious or opposition figure, immediately identified, located and silenced. And apparently that's worth a comfortable 6 figure salary to a lot of engineers and managers in comfortable, developed countries. Do you really think you'd be in the position you're in if your ancestors never had the chance to remove their despotic king/emperor/dear leader? If you don't think it would be another North Korea, maybe it's because of some ahistorical belief that your culture is inherently more civilised. So you probably don't see the racism that's implicit in your statement. From my experience in the Middle East, seeing people march for an end to corruption, for justice, for a chance for their kids, I realise I hardly know anyone back home as brave, as prepared to risk everything for their political and civil rights. They aren't marching for another ruler. They deserve a chance. So fuck NSO and its deplorable staff.
        montblanc 5y ago
        I don't care about NSO at all, they can shut down tomorrow for all I care. I'm just saying if the alternative is between something like the Islamic Revolution of Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood type movements - to something like the military regime Egypt has now or whatever the Saudis came up with, I take the latter. What you said about resistance being impossible - it won't get any better under a radical Islamic rule as we are seeing in Iran. All I am saying it can get way worse. it CAN become North Korea. What we have now in several areas there may be the best we can get for now. And a big part of how I feel about this is about self survival - the Iranian regime hates the West (and especially the U.S but not only) in very deep ways that Saudi Arabia/UAE/Egypt/etc do not. That's how it is. As long as it is what it is selling stuff to Saudi Arabia doesn't sound super terrible.

I agree that the word 'sponsorship' has been quite diluted, as you point out, but it should mean something more than 'be a customer of'. Do I sponsor my local sports team when I buy tickets to a game? Am I sponsoring Netflix by subscribing? Do I sponsor my local government by paying property taxes? On the flip side, does my government sponsor me by granting a driver's license?

Sporktacular 5y ago
I get bothered by the use of the term "nation-state" in this context. And I thought I was pedantic.
- nickff 5y ago
  >"I get bothered by the use of the term "nation-state" in this context. And I thought I was pedantic. " I don't think I'm being pedantic, it seems like people use the word 'sponsor' in these contexts to exaggerate and vilify. Nobody seems to have used the word 'nation-state' in this post; what made you think of it?
  - Sporktacular 5y ago
    It's used throughout the comments and the topic generally. I don't call it out (for meaning a state with borders aligned with an ethnicity) because I get the point being made. As for sponsorship, states sponsor their industries by providing labor trained at public expense, promoting them abroad through trade agreements, access to trade representation etc. so there is the technical definition of sponsorship met. The revolving door between Unit 8200 and surveillance startups is documented as is Israel's courting of KSA and the UAE with access to intelligence sharing and capabilities as a bargaining chip. And why wouldn't they? It's good for the state and its industry. Just sucks for everyone else. The definition of sponsorship doesn't matter when it is met in every sense of the word.
    - montblanc 5y ago
      > Just sucks for everyone else Not necessarily. I assume you mean it fortifies despot regimes in the Middle East right? I no longer think at this time there is any sane alternative.
      - Sporktacular 5y ago
        Because that's worked out so well until now. So may as well make a little cash on the side of it, eh? Do you think the path to end tyranny was so smooth in developed countries? Think back through Western revolutionary history and now immediately forget the name of every leader the moment you think of them - because that's what's happening, right now, in these countries at this exact stage of their political development. The technology now exists to make effective popular resistance impossible. Every possible rebellion strangled at birth. Every potential leader, every sympathetic journalist, religious or opposition figure, immediately identified, located and silenced. And apparently that's worth a comfortable 6 figure salary to a lot of engineers and managers in comfortable, developed countries. Do you really think you'd be in the position you're in if your ancestors never had the chance to remove their despotic king/emperor/dear leader? If you don't think it would be another North Korea, maybe it's because of some ahistorical belief that your culture is inherently more civilised. So you probably don't see the racism that's implicit in your statement. From my experience in the Middle East, seeing people march for an end to corruption, for justice, for a chance for their kids, I realise I hardly know anyone back home as brave, as prepared to risk everything for their political and civil rights. They aren't marching for another ruler. They deserve a chance. So fuck NSO and its deplorable staff.
        montblanc 5y ago
        I don't care about NSO at all, they can shut down tomorrow for all I care. I'm just saying if the alternative is between something like the Islamic Revolution of Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood type movements - to something like the military regime Egypt has now or whatever the Saudis came up with, I take the latter. What you said about resistance being impossible - it won't get any better under a radical Islamic rule as we are seeing in Iran. All I am saying it can get way worse. it CAN become North Korea. What we have now in several areas there may be the best we can get for now. And a big part of how I feel about this is about self survival - the Iranian regime hates the West (and especially the U.S but not only) in very deep ways that Saudi Arabia/UAE/Egypt/etc do not. That's how it is. As long as it is what it is selling stuff to Saudi Arabia doesn't sound super terrible.