7 ms·

One could interpret this as the software is "sponsored" by the governments that finance their operations and purchase their products. This would be countries li

by badRNG 5y ago

One could interpret this as the software is "sponsored" by the governments that finance their operations and purchase their products. This would be countries like Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Germany, and Kazakhstan, not necessarily Israel. Though the fact the US has sanctioned an Israeli business does seem to have potential implications on Israeli policy. [1] [1] https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-blacklists-four-companies-israel-russia-singapore-citing-spyware-2021-11-03/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-blacklists-four-compan...

technobabbler 5y ago
Beyond merely selling their products to Israel, the NSO Group itself is an Israeli firm, founded by ex-Israeli intelligence, and whose products are subject to Israeli national export controls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group That's a level of sponsorship way beyond simply being a customer... that's state espionage served with a side of profit. It's evil when the USA does it, it's evil when the Russians do it, it's evil when China does it, it's evil when Israel does it... but nobody does anything about it because all those states would prefer strong surveillance rather than rights for activists and journalists.
- nickff 5y ago
  None of this seems like 'sponsorship' to me, it seems more like 'restriction' or 'regulation'. 'Sponsorship' implies that someone is providing a level of funding beyond just being a paying customer. Is there any evidence that the government of Israel (or any of the other governments you mention) are actually providing loans or share capital to NSO Group?
  - high_byte 5y ago
    my brother has vans sponsorship. he gets shirts and shoes, not money ;) you get my point?
    - nickff 5y ago
      I agree that the word 'sponsorship' has been quite diluted, as you point out, but it should mean something more than 'be a customer of'. Do I sponsor my local sports team when I buy tickets to a game? Am I sponsoring Netflix by subscribing? Do I sponsor my local government by paying property taxes? On the flip side, does my government sponsor me by granting a driver's license?
      - Sporktacular 5y ago
        I get bothered by the use of the term "nation-state" in this context. And I thought I was pedantic.
        nickff 5y ago
        >"I get bothered by the use of the term "nation-state" in this context. And I thought I was pedantic. " I don't think I'm being pedantic, it seems like people use the word 'sponsor' in these contexts to exaggerate and vilify. Nobody seems to have used the word 'nation-state' in this post; what made you think of it?
        Sporktacular 5y ago
        It's used throughout the comments and the topic generally. I don't call it out (for meaning a state with borders aligned with an ethnicity) because I get the point being made. As for sponsorship, states sponsor their industries by providing labor trained at public expense, promoting them abroad through trade agreements, access to trade representation etc. so there is the technical definition of sponsorship met. The revolving door between Unit 8200 and surveillance startups is documented as is Israel's courting of KSA and the UAE with access to intelligence sharing and capabilities as a bargaining chip. And why wouldn't they? It's good for the state and its industry. Just sucks for everyone else. The definition of sponsorship doesn't matter when it is met in every sense of the word.
        montblanc 5y ago
  - threeseed 5y ago
    Dictionary defines it broader than just money i.e. support, advice etc. In this case it is clear that the Israeli government is sponsoring NSO.
- rodgerd 5y ago
  Every Israeli citizen, except religious extremists, serves in the IDF or equivalent; if you look useful to the intelligence apparatus, that's where you'll end up. You literally cannot find an Israeli company that isn't founded, run, and staffed by people with military or intelligence links, unless you're only dealing with religious extremists.
  - montblanc 5y ago
    A bit more nuanced; Israeli Arab Muslims (besides Bedouins) and Arab Christians don't go to the army besides some very small number of volunteers. Bedouins are a special case but I think going to the army isn't as prevalent with them as it used to be. Druze all go to the army but they are not Muslim and don't see themselves as connected to the Palestinians.
    - rodgerd 5y ago
      Valid point - I was primarily talking to Israeli Jewish citizens from that perspective.
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    Not sure that makes it any better.
    - rodgerd 5y ago
      It makes it a nothingburger. Your Israeli barista has past involvement with the security forces. In and of itself it's basically a meaningless statement.
      - technobabbler 5y ago
        Yeah, an intelligence firm founded by ex intelligence is absolutely a coincidence. There's no chance they would use their skills or connections in their new firm.
- fortran77 5y ago
  The very wikipedia article you linked to says that the NSO Group is owned by " Novalpina Capital" They describe themselves this way: > Novalpina Capital is an independent European private equity firm that focuses on making control equity investments in middle market companies throughout the continent. Novalpina Capital has a solution-orientated, entrepreneurial approach to investing and creating value in its portfolio companies. > Novalpina Capital was established by Stephen Peel, Stefan Kowski and Bastian Lueken in 2017. The Founding Partners bring combined experience of 48 years in private equity investing, including senior positions in the European operations of leading global private equity investment firms, and have a shared history of working together for nearly a decade.
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    Capital may be liquid, but staff nationalities, values, ideals, and goals...not so much. This isn't some far-flung conspiracy about dark forces puppeteering seemingly innocent companies. It's just people valuing profit over concern for human rights. It's a surveillance firm, what would you expect? What would be a benevolent use of this technology even be?
- einpoklum 5y ago
  > Israeli national export controls A crash course in Israeli national export control: 1. You can sell everything except for nuclear tech (and maybe even that, I don't know). 2. If the client is not officially an enemy of Israel then do whatever you want, we don't give an f'ing f'. 3. If the client _is_ officially an enemy of Israel, then all sales must be conducted through official (secret) state channels. Independent side-action will not be tolerated (see the cases of Nahum Manbar or Shim'on Sheves). This might be a hassle, but the upside is that the courts will uphold complete secrecy of your affairs and the military censorship (yes, Israel has that) will likely prevent any nasty exposes. 4. If the US throws a tantrum, then sections (1.) and (2.) are abrogated. But don't worry: There plenty of generals and other high-ranking retired officers are in key positions in politics, and a bunch of us are wanted for war crimes anyways with ICC cases pending, so... we're all friends here and we got your back.
  - bjourne 5y ago
    Are you sure about that? The English translation of the export control law seem to imply that companies exporting defense equipment must have a license and that that license can be revoked whenever for almost whatever reason: http://www.exportctrl.mod.gov.il/Documents/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A7%20%D7%94%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%97%20+%20%D7%A6%D7%95%D7%95%D7%99%D7%9D%20+%20%D7%AA%D7%A7%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA/Defense_Export_Contro_Law.pdf http://www.exportctrl.mod.gov.il/Documents/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A... I may be misunderstanding it though.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - montblanc 5y ago
    Is that so much different than how the U.S operates, other than Israel is really fun to demonize? The U.S arms whoever it wants to arm, Europe as well. So selling F-15's is cool but cyber hacks isn't. Got it.
    - technobabbler 5y ago
      There's definitely parallels to be drawn between the Israeli and the American conservative/right-wing/militant nationalist elements. Both countries operate as global bullies, using military force to subjugate externally and propaganda and fear of replacement to subjugate internally, heavily enhanced by the use of technology. They both have this old-guard mentality of "might makes right" hegemony, which a lot of other countries (and some portion of their populations) don't like because it's broadly incompatible with a human-rights centered worldview that favors the pipe dream of peaceful multilateral democracies. Count myself as someone who dislikes this approach. Whether it's planes or surveillance tech or reactor malware doesn't really matter, all just ammunition for their goals. Israel at least has a survival need; it learned the (very) hard way that it has many enemies constantly seeking to destroy it. It's an us-or-them mentality hardened by centuries of oppression and decades of war. America... now that's much harder to find an excuse for. And arguably we've spent all our resources on attacking Muslim scapegoats while China leapfrogs us. But hey, I don't make global policy, I just comment on it on the internet.
- nikcub 5y ago
  Further to this there has been some recent coverage in the Israeli press about the strong relationship between NSO Group and the Israeli government. The gov used NSO and it's products as a lure to the Gulf states to bring them on-side as a wedge against Iran https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/.premium-with-israel-s-encouragement-nso-sold-spyware-to-uae-and-other-gulf-states-1.9093465 https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/.premium-with-israe... > NSO is one of the most active Israeli companies in the Gulf, and its Pegasus 3 software permits law enforcement authorities to hack into cellphones, copy their contents and sometimes even to control their camera and audio recording capabilities > Israel put NSO in touch with Arab states in the region, and Israeli representatives even took part in marketing meetings between intelligence officials in the Arab states and NSO executives. Some of the meetings were held in Israel. Further reading on just how intertwined NSO group was with the government: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-israel-spyware-and-corruption-nso-ties-to-netanyahu-bennett-and-other-politicians-1.10383553 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-israe...
- SubjectToChange 5y ago
  the NSO Group itself is an Israeli firm, founded by ex-Israeli intelligence, and whose products are subject to Israeli national export controls. All this means is that the NSO Group is an Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens. I don't know what export controls have to do with anything since those apply categories of products, regardless of whether or not you have business with the Israeli government.
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    It's a little disingenuous to suggest that an intelligence firm founded by state intelligence officers is just another "Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens", as though it were a street-corner restaurant. Other threads here have mentioned the close ties between that company and the government. Is this really controversial? Who else would a hardcore surveillance company's primary customers be..? Cheating spouses? Export controls means, one, that the product they're selling is likely a concern of national security, unlike, say, your average lockpick kit or GPS tracker. Two, it means the state gets to selectively pick and choose who it shares this technology with, using it as a tool of statecraft/diplomacy/subterfuge/sabotage. It's a recognition of the value of the technology, along with a desire to limit its availability to Israel's enemies. NSO's own website says "NSO Group, develops best-in-class technology to help government agencies detect and prevent a wide-range of local and global threats." It wouldn't exist if not for state sponsorship.
    - SubjectToChange 5y ago
      It's a little disingenuous to suggest that an intelligence firm founded by state intelligence officers is just another "Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens", as though it were a street-corner restaurant. Other threads here have mentioned the close ties between that company and the government. I have no problem believing that Israel "sponsors" them, but your justifications are baseless. Ex-intelligence officers are not government officials, they are civilians. And government contracts don't imply "sponsorship" in the usual sense, e.g. a landscaping company would not be said to be "state-sponsored" just because they are contracted to work around a government property. You, and Apple, have to demonstrate how Israel materially supports the NSO Group outside of usual business practices. Export controls means, one, that the product they're selling is likely a concern of national security, unlike, say, your average lockpick kit or GPS tracker. GPS devices of almost any kind are subject to ITAR/EAR in the USA. It is extremely easy to run afoul of weapons export controls and there is quite a large market for ITAR-free products. It means extraordinarily little if a product is subject to these type of controls.
DSingularity 5y ago
NSO would not sell to those countries if the regional interests of Saudi /UAE were unaligned with the Israeli desires for the regions. Israel wants dictatorships throughout the Arabian peninsula and turmoil within the borders of all of its neighbors. The NSO software helps advance Israeli interests on both those fronts.

by badRNG 5y ago

technobabbler 5y ago

Beyond merely selling their products to Israel, the NSO Group itself is an Israeli firm, founded by ex-Israeli intelligence, and whose products are subject to Israeli national export controls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group That's a level of sponsorship way beyond simply being a customer... that's state espionage served with a side of profit. It's evil when the USA does it, it's evil when the Russians do it, it's evil when China does it, it's evil when Israel does it... but nobody does anything about it because all those states would prefer strong surveillance rather than rights for activists and journalists.

nickff 5y ago
None of this seems like 'sponsorship' to me, it seems more like 'restriction' or 'regulation'. 'Sponsorship' implies that someone is providing a level of funding beyond just being a paying customer. Is there any evidence that the government of Israel (or any of the other governments you mention) are actually providing loans or share capital to NSO Group?
- high_byte 5y ago
  my brother has vans sponsorship. he gets shirts and shoes, not money ;) you get my point?
  - nickff 5y ago
    I agree that the word 'sponsorship' has been quite diluted, as you point out, but it should mean something more than 'be a customer of'. Do I sponsor my local sports team when I buy tickets to a game? Am I sponsoring Netflix by subscribing? Do I sponsor my local government by paying property taxes? On the flip side, does my government sponsor me by granting a driver's license?
    - Sporktacular 5y ago
      I get bothered by the use of the term "nation-state" in this context. And I thought I was pedantic.
      - nickff 5y ago
        >"I get bothered by the use of the term "nation-state" in this context. And I thought I was pedantic. " I don't think I'm being pedantic, it seems like people use the word 'sponsor' in these contexts to exaggerate and vilify. Nobody seems to have used the word 'nation-state' in this post; what made you think of it?
        Sporktacular 5y ago
        It's used throughout the comments and the topic generally. I don't call it out (for meaning a state with borders aligned with an ethnicity) because I get the point being made. As for sponsorship, states sponsor their industries by providing labor trained at public expense, promoting them abroad through trade agreements, access to trade representation etc. so there is the technical definition of sponsorship met. The revolving door between Unit 8200 and surveillance startups is documented as is Israel's courting of KSA and the UAE with access to intelligence sharing and capabilities as a bargaining chip. And why wouldn't they? It's good for the state and its industry. Just sucks for everyone else. The definition of sponsorship doesn't matter when it is met in every sense of the word.
        montblanc 5y ago
- threeseed 5y ago
  Dictionary defines it broader than just money i.e. support, advice etc. In this case it is clear that the Israeli government is sponsoring NSO.
rodgerd 5y ago
Every Israeli citizen, except religious extremists, serves in the IDF or equivalent; if you look useful to the intelligence apparatus, that's where you'll end up. You literally cannot find an Israeli company that isn't founded, run, and staffed by people with military or intelligence links, unless you're only dealing with religious extremists.
- montblanc 5y ago
  A bit more nuanced; Israeli Arab Muslims (besides Bedouins) and Arab Christians don't go to the army besides some very small number of volunteers. Bedouins are a special case but I think going to the army isn't as prevalent with them as it used to be. Druze all go to the army but they are not Muslim and don't see themselves as connected to the Palestinians.
  - rodgerd 5y ago
    Valid point - I was primarily talking to Israeli Jewish citizens from that perspective.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Not sure that makes it any better.
  - rodgerd 5y ago
    It makes it a nothingburger. Your Israeli barista has past involvement with the security forces. In and of itself it's basically a meaningless statement.
    - technobabbler 5y ago
      Yeah, an intelligence firm founded by ex intelligence is absolutely a coincidence. There's no chance they would use their skills or connections in their new firm.
fortran77 5y ago
The very wikipedia article you linked to says that the NSO Group is owned by " Novalpina Capital" They describe themselves this way: > Novalpina Capital is an independent European private equity firm that focuses on making control equity investments in middle market companies throughout the continent. Novalpina Capital has a solution-orientated, entrepreneurial approach to investing and creating value in its portfolio companies. > Novalpina Capital was established by Stephen Peel, Stefan Kowski and Bastian Lueken in 2017. The Founding Partners bring combined experience of 48 years in private equity investing, including senior positions in the European operations of leading global private equity investment firms, and have a shared history of working together for nearly a decade.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Capital may be liquid, but staff nationalities, values, ideals, and goals...not so much. This isn't some far-flung conspiracy about dark forces puppeteering seemingly innocent companies. It's just people valuing profit over concern for human rights. It's a surveillance firm, what would you expect? What would be a benevolent use of this technology even be?
einpoklum 5y ago
> Israeli national export controls A crash course in Israeli national export control: 1. You can sell everything except for nuclear tech (and maybe even that, I don't know). 2. If the client is not officially an enemy of Israel then do whatever you want, we don't give an f'ing f'. 3. If the client _is_ officially an enemy of Israel, then all sales must be conducted through official (secret) state channels. Independent side-action will not be tolerated (see the cases of Nahum Manbar or Shim'on Sheves). This might be a hassle, but the upside is that the courts will uphold complete secrecy of your affairs and the military censorship (yes, Israel has that) will likely prevent any nasty exposes. 4. If the US throws a tantrum, then sections (1.) and (2.) are abrogated. But don't worry: There plenty of generals and other high-ranking retired officers are in key positions in politics, and a bunch of us are wanted for war crimes anyways with ICC cases pending, so... we're all friends here and we got your back.
- bjourne 5y ago
  Are you sure about that? The English translation of the export control law seem to imply that companies exporting defense equipment must have a license and that that license can be revoked whenever for almost whatever reason: http://www.exportctrl.mod.gov.il/Documents/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A7%20%D7%94%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%97%20+%20%D7%A6%D7%95%D7%95%D7%99%D7%9D%20+%20%D7%AA%D7%A7%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA/Defense_Export_Contro_Law.pdf http://www.exportctrl.mod.gov.il/Documents/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A... I may be misunderstanding it though.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- montblanc 5y ago
  Is that so much different than how the U.S operates, other than Israel is really fun to demonize? The U.S arms whoever it wants to arm, Europe as well. So selling F-15's is cool but cyber hacks isn't. Got it.
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    There's definitely parallels to be drawn between the Israeli and the American conservative/right-wing/militant nationalist elements. Both countries operate as global bullies, using military force to subjugate externally and propaganda and fear of replacement to subjugate internally, heavily enhanced by the use of technology. They both have this old-guard mentality of "might makes right" hegemony, which a lot of other countries (and some portion of their populations) don't like because it's broadly incompatible with a human-rights centered worldview that favors the pipe dream of peaceful multilateral democracies. Count myself as someone who dislikes this approach. Whether it's planes or surveillance tech or reactor malware doesn't really matter, all just ammunition for their goals. Israel at least has a survival need; it learned the (very) hard way that it has many enemies constantly seeking to destroy it. It's an us-or-them mentality hardened by centuries of oppression and decades of war. America... now that's much harder to find an excuse for. And arguably we've spent all our resources on attacking Muslim scapegoats while China leapfrogs us. But hey, I don't make global policy, I just comment on it on the internet.
nikcub 5y ago
Further to this there has been some recent coverage in the Israeli press about the strong relationship between NSO Group and the Israeli government. The gov used NSO and it's products as a lure to the Gulf states to bring them on-side as a wedge against Iran https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/.premium-with-israel-s-encouragement-nso-sold-spyware-to-uae-and-other-gulf-states-1.9093465 https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/.premium-with-israe... > NSO is one of the most active Israeli companies in the Gulf, and its Pegasus 3 software permits law enforcement authorities to hack into cellphones, copy their contents and sometimes even to control their camera and audio recording capabilities > Israel put NSO in touch with Arab states in the region, and Israeli representatives even took part in marketing meetings between intelligence officials in the Arab states and NSO executives. Some of the meetings were held in Israel. Further reading on just how intertwined NSO group was with the government: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-israel-spyware-and-corruption-nso-ties-to-netanyahu-bennett-and-other-politicians-1.10383553 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-israe...
SubjectToChange 5y ago
the NSO Group itself is an Israeli firm, founded by ex-Israeli intelligence, and whose products are subject to Israeli national export controls. All this means is that the NSO Group is an Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens. I don't know what export controls have to do with anything since those apply categories of products, regardless of whether or not you have business with the Israeli government.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  It's a little disingenuous to suggest that an intelligence firm founded by state intelligence officers is just another "Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens", as though it were a street-corner restaurant. Other threads here have mentioned the close ties between that company and the government. Is this really controversial? Who else would a hardcore surveillance company's primary customers be..? Cheating spouses? Export controls means, one, that the product they're selling is likely a concern of national security, unlike, say, your average lockpick kit or GPS tracker. Two, it means the state gets to selectively pick and choose who it shares this technology with, using it as a tool of statecraft/diplomacy/subterfuge/sabotage. It's a recognition of the value of the technology, along with a desire to limit its availability to Israel's enemies. NSO's own website says "NSO Group, develops best-in-class technology to help government agencies detect and prevent a wide-range of local and global threats." It wouldn't exist if not for state sponsorship.
  - SubjectToChange 5y ago
    It's a little disingenuous to suggest that an intelligence firm founded by state intelligence officers is just another "Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens", as though it were a street-corner restaurant. Other threads here have mentioned the close ties between that company and the government. I have no problem believing that Israel "sponsors" them, but your justifications are baseless. Ex-intelligence officers are not government officials, they are civilians. And government contracts don't imply "sponsorship" in the usual sense, e.g. a landscaping company would not be said to be "state-sponsored" just because they are contracted to work around a government property. You, and Apple, have to demonstrate how Israel materially supports the NSO Group outside of usual business practices. Export controls means, one, that the product they're selling is likely a concern of national security, unlike, say, your average lockpick kit or GPS tracker. GPS devices of almost any kind are subject to ITAR/EAR in the USA. It is extremely easy to run afoul of weapons export controls and there is quite a large market for ITAR-free products. It means extraordinarily little if a product is subject to these type of controls.

DSingularity 5y ago

NSO would not sell to those countries if the regional interests of Saudi /UAE were unaligned with the Israeli desires for the regions. Israel wants dictatorships throughout the Arabian peninsula and turmoil within the borders of all of its neighbors. The NSO software helps advance Israeli interests on both those fronts.