5 ms·

Agreed, convincing people who think the entire thing is orchestrated by dark forces is pointless. At this point, what I'd like to see: a) accept natural immun

Agreed, convincing people who think the entire thing is orchestrated by dark forces is pointless. At this point, what I'd like to see: a) accept natural immunity alongside vaccination status, probably need some kind of antibody count test for that to work b) "incentives" for vaccinated population, e.g. 90% discount on COVID treatments while unvaccinated pay full price

Godel_unicode 5y ago
There are several studies saying that vaccines are beneficial even for people who have natural immunity from an infection. Also, if we have learned anything the last two years it's that at a population level people flatly cannot handle nuance. Anything other than a flat "you must have proof of vaccination" isn't going to work.
- moistly 5y ago
  One of those studies on the infected-then-vaccinated set (or, at least, an author of the study, being interviewed) claims “superhuman immunity” — effective against a spectrum of SARS viruses. Presumably the reverse (vaccinated-then-infected) is not true. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677... I will say that I do not particularly trust NPR any more; they have misreported events in direct contradiction of clear video and audio feeds of the events.
  - Godel_unicode 5y ago
    This post is very confusing to me. Why would the reverse not be true? Why did you post a source that you don't trust? Why just throw out an accusation like that, but with no specifics for people to follow up on and decide for themselves?
Valgrim 5y ago
(b) is really only applicable in countries where universal healthcare is nonexistent.
- vinay427 5y ago
  Well, that would be most countries, even in the West. Few places have an NHS-style comprehensive and universal coverage system, and in most of the rest (spanning Germany, the US, etc.) there are various levers of private insurance regulation that governments can employ to this end. For instance, the coverage of tests and vaccines has been legislated and repeatedly updated through the course of the pandemic in the country where I live.
bobthechef 5y ago
No need to be black and white about this. It's not just a battle between the rabid authoritarians and hysterical Chicken Littles on one side, and the crackpot QAnons and categorical anti-vaxxers on the other. There's a range of reasonable positions in between. So let's stop framing things in the distorted and divisive way that the media has profited enormously from. I, for one, do not think the COVID vaccine specifically should be mandatory, nor do I think coercive tactics should be used. I think freedom of conscience is important generally and people should not be compelled against their consciences to do things they do not think they should be doing. We should also avoid fixating on COVID as if it was the be-all and end-all of human existence. It is one consideration and also one that does not justifiably admit imposing a blanket burden on everyone. Perhaps this is the result of the law of instrument: some epidemiology-informed considerations could be so hyperfocused on COVID, everything else if forgotten. A treatment of this topic is also available here which touches on these considerations: https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2021/10/covid-19-vaccination-should-not-be.html https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2021/10/covid-19-vaccinatio...
- zwieback 5y ago
  Yes and no. Vaccination is absolutely a black and white issue, you either got vaccinated or you didn't. What comes after that is not black and white: the antibody count is variable, from zero to some large number. What I'm proposing is not black and white but instead two things that give people a range of choices.
- lgbfjb 5y ago
  They'll lock you up in Australia for these types of views. Australia already has sent 38 people to a concentration camp merely because they tested positive. If you don't think this is coming to America - think again. The fascists here are drunk on power.
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  Vaccine mandates make sense for the same reason drunk driving bans make sense: externalities. The role of government is to cover for market failings, and spillover costs are a prime example of an area where markets are essentially guaranteed to fail.
guilhas 5y ago
Also 90% discount for nonfat people 90% discount on lung cancers of nonsmokers General 30% discount for people exercising regularly Etc...

Godel_unicode 5y ago

There are several studies saying that vaccines are beneficial even for people who have natural immunity from an infection. Also, if we have learned anything the last two years it's that at a population level people flatly cannot handle nuance. Anything other than a flat "you must have proof of vaccination" isn't going to work.

moistly 5y ago
One of those studies on the infected-then-vaccinated set (or, at least, an author of the study, being interviewed) claims “superhuman immunity” — effective against a spectrum of SARS viruses. Presumably the reverse (vaccinated-then-infected) is not true. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677... I will say that I do not particularly trust NPR any more; they have misreported events in direct contradiction of clear video and audio feeds of the events.
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  This post is very confusing to me. Why would the reverse not be true? Why did you post a source that you don't trust? Why just throw out an accusation like that, but with no specifics for people to follow up on and decide for themselves?

Valgrim 5y ago

(b) is really only applicable in countries where universal healthcare is nonexistent.

vinay427 5y ago
Well, that would be most countries, even in the West. Few places have an NHS-style comprehensive and universal coverage system, and in most of the rest (spanning Germany, the US, etc.) there are various levers of private insurance regulation that governments can employ to this end. For instance, the coverage of tests and vaccines has been legislated and repeatedly updated through the course of the pandemic in the country where I live.

bobthechef 5y ago

No need to be black and white about this. It's not just a battle between the rabid authoritarians and hysterical Chicken Littles on one side, and the crackpot QAnons and categorical anti-vaxxers on the other. There's a range of reasonable positions in between. So let's stop framing things in the distorted and divisive way that the media has profited enormously from. I, for one, do not think the COVID vaccine specifically should be mandatory, nor do I think coercive tactics should be used. I think freedom of conscience is important generally and people should not be compelled against their consciences to do things they do not think they should be doing. We should also avoid fixating on COVID as if it was the be-all and end-all of human existence. It is one consideration and also one that does not justifiably admit imposing a blanket burden on everyone. Perhaps this is the result of the law of instrument: some epidemiology-informed considerations could be so hyperfocused on COVID, everything else if forgotten. A treatment of this topic is also available here which touches on these considerations: https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2021/10/covid-19-vaccination-should-not-be.html https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2021/10/covid-19-vaccinatio...

zwieback 5y ago
Yes and no. Vaccination is absolutely a black and white issue, you either got vaccinated or you didn't. What comes after that is not black and white: the antibody count is variable, from zero to some large number. What I'm proposing is not black and white but instead two things that give people a range of choices.
lgbfjb 5y ago
They'll lock you up in Australia for these types of views. Australia already has sent 38 people to a concentration camp merely because they tested positive. If you don't think this is coming to America - think again. The fascists here are drunk on power.
Godel_unicode 5y ago
Vaccine mandates make sense for the same reason drunk driving bans make sense: externalities. The role of government is to cover for market failings, and spillover costs are a prime example of an area where markets are essentially guaranteed to fail.

guilhas 5y ago

Also 90% discount for nonfat people 90% discount on lung cancers of nonsmokers General 30% discount for people exercising regularly Etc...