3 ms·

We can't move on when a substantial part of the population remains unvaccinated. With hospitals in the brink of collapse, there would be no return to normality

We can't move on when a substantial part of the population remains unvaccinated. With hospitals in the brink of collapse, there would be no return to normality any time soon.

aantix 5y ago
~12,000 patients in the ICU is "the brink of collapse"? https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/current-covid-patients-icu https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/current-covid-patients-ic...
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  If they're all in the same ICU then yes. Hyperbole aside, surely you realize this is a density problem not a magnitude problem.
  - aantix 5y ago
    Yes, density. And scaling of services. But scaling issues should subside over time. The U.S. spends 3.8 trillion a year on healthcare. Scaling issues five years out? Less acceptable. 20 years out? Unacceptable.
curiousgal 5y ago
Well then make it a law. No amount of reasoning will change these people's mind. The only anti-vax people I've seen get vaccinated are the ones who lost a close one, and even that does not always work, let alone some data viz.
- throwaway2077 5y ago
  >Well then make it a law cool. but let us not stop there. there are so many more public health hazards that we can solve that way.
- zwieback 5y ago
  yesterday I was in line to get my booster and I overheard an unvaccinated person get their first dose because their job offer was about to be rescinded. So, in addition to losing loved ones I think mandates do work. Putting it into law, like you suggest is harder, but giving companies green light for mandates is easier and does have some noticeable effect.
  - chrismcb 5y ago
    Telling people the truth and not forcing them to get vaccinated will have a larger effect.
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  I know tons of people who have been convinced by talking, and have been very active in matching up experts I personally know to people who have questions. This is a tractable problem in the majority of cases, it just requires empathy and patience. People are stressed, people are scared, people are exhausted. Righteous anger makes all of that worse.
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
  I am vehemently pro-vaxx, but I'm against making it law, as that is an attack on bodily autonomy. I'm fine with jobs requiring vaccination, and I'm fine with government jobs and public schools requiring vaccination, and even businesses (especially ones involving crowds of people, like conference/convention halls and cruise ships) requiring vaccination. It's basically saying, "You don't want to get vaccinated? Fine, then you don't get to participate in our society." But a law introducing criminal penalties for being unvaxxed? No way.
jjtheblunt 5y ago
Brutally (and to your point in a backwards way, because I think your point is valid), history shows humanity moved on before vaccines existed, and we're here to talk about moving on or not.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> when a substantial part of the population remains unvaccinated It's a vanishing minority of crazies. 99.9% of over 65-year olds have had one jab; 80% of those over 12 [1]. Close to a fifth of the population has had their booster. This debate is over. The people who are left will either be nudged by mandates or self-isolate from areas of dense population or economic activity, which automatically reduces their risk to the public. [1] https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations_vacc-total-admin-rate-total https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations_vacc-...
- robrenaud 5y ago
  > 99.9% of over 65-year olds have had one jab; Wow, that's amazing. As someone who has followed the covid stuff pretty closely, that's very surprising to me. I would have guessed it would be around 95%.
- elorant 5y ago
  In Greece, where I live, one third of people over 60 are unvaccinated. The same goes for various European countries which explains the new wave that is deadlier than ever. The more data we have the better.
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  It's not a vanishing minority. The people over 65 largely have it because they've stared mortality in the face enough times to hedge on the side of caution. On the other side, you've got the under-65 crowd who aren't met monthly or weekly with an obituary of someone they know or used to know who think that they're "healthy" because they haven't had a triple bypass yet.
- erehweb 5y ago
  I interpret the link re 99.9% of over 65-year olds having had one jab in the same way as you, but I'm doubtful as to whether the number is correct - see e.g. https://www.cdc.gov/nhsn/covid19/ltc-vaccination-dashboard.html https://www.cdc.gov/nhsn/covid19/ltc-vaccination-dashboard.h... also from the CDC which claims only about 90% of nursing home residents having had one jab. 0.1% of over 65 not having any vaccination seems very small, given logistical differences / political opposition etc.
black6 5y ago
Which hospitals?

We can't move on when a substantial part of the population remains unvaccinated. With hospitals in the brink of collapse, there would be no return to normality any time soon.

aantix 5y ago

~12,000 patients in the ICU is "the brink of collapse"? https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/current-covid-patients-icu https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/current-covid-patients-ic...

Godel_unicode 5y ago
If they're all in the same ICU then yes. Hyperbole aside, surely you realize this is a density problem not a magnitude problem.
- aantix 5y ago
  Yes, density. And scaling of services. But scaling issues should subside over time. The U.S. spends 3.8 trillion a year on healthcare. Scaling issues five years out? Less acceptable. 20 years out? Unacceptable.

curiousgal 5y ago

Well then make it a law. No amount of reasoning will change these people's mind. The only anti-vax people I've seen get vaccinated are the ones who lost a close one, and even that does not always work, let alone some data viz.

throwaway2077 5y ago
>Well then make it a law cool. but let us not stop there. there are so many more public health hazards that we can solve that way.
zwieback 5y ago
yesterday I was in line to get my booster and I overheard an unvaccinated person get their first dose because their job offer was about to be rescinded. So, in addition to losing loved ones I think mandates do work. Putting it into law, like you suggest is harder, but giving companies green light for mandates is easier and does have some noticeable effect.
- chrismcb 5y ago
  Telling people the truth and not forcing them to get vaccinated will have a larger effect.
Godel_unicode 5y ago
I know tons of people who have been convinced by talking, and have been very active in matching up experts I personally know to people who have questions. This is a tractable problem in the majority of cases, it just requires empathy and patience. People are stressed, people are scared, people are exhausted. Righteous anger makes all of that worse.
Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
I am vehemently pro-vaxx, but I'm against making it law, as that is an attack on bodily autonomy. I'm fine with jobs requiring vaccination, and I'm fine with government jobs and public schools requiring vaccination, and even businesses (especially ones involving crowds of people, like conference/convention halls and cruise ships) requiring vaccination. It's basically saying, "You don't want to get vaccinated? Fine, then you don't get to participate in our society." But a law introducing criminal penalties for being unvaxxed? No way.

jjtheblunt 5y ago

Brutally (and to your point in a backwards way, because I think your point is valid), history shows humanity moved on before vaccines existed, and we're here to talk about moving on or not.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> when a substantial part of the population remains unvaccinated It's a vanishing minority of crazies. 99.9% of over 65-year olds have had one jab; 80% of those over 12 [1]. Close to a fifth of the population has had their booster. This debate is over. The people who are left will either be nudged by mandates or self-isolate from areas of dense population or economic activity, which automatically reduces their risk to the public. [1] https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations_vacc-total-admin-rate-total https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations_vacc-...

robrenaud 5y ago
> 99.9% of over 65-year olds have had one jab; Wow, that's amazing. As someone who has followed the covid stuff pretty closely, that's very surprising to me. I would have guessed it would be around 95%.
elorant 5y ago
In Greece, where I live, one third of people over 60 are unvaccinated. The same goes for various European countries which explains the new wave that is deadlier than ever. The more data we have the better.
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
It's not a vanishing minority. The people over 65 largely have it because they've stared mortality in the face enough times to hedge on the side of caution. On the other side, you've got the under-65 crowd who aren't met monthly or weekly with an obituary of someone they know or used to know who think that they're "healthy" because they haven't had a triple bypass yet.
erehweb 5y ago
I interpret the link re 99.9% of over 65-year olds having had one jab in the same way as you, but I'm doubtful as to whether the number is correct - see e.g. https://www.cdc.gov/nhsn/covid19/ltc-vaccination-dashboard.html https://www.cdc.gov/nhsn/covid19/ltc-vaccination-dashboard.h... also from the CDC which claims only about 90% of nursing home residents having had one jab. 0.1% of over 65 not having any vaccination seems very small, given logistical differences / political opposition etc.

black6 5y ago

Which hospitals?