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It’s only a matter of time—-humanity has the choice to accept degrowth voluntarily now, at a time when it can be safely managed, or have it be forced by the cir

It’s only a matter of time—-humanity has the choice to accept degrowth voluntarily now, at a time when it can be safely managed, or have it be forced by the circumstances of our natural world a few decades from now. Or are you one of those who believe that economic laws will somehow override physical laws? Because physical limits exist, and we are hitting them.

lenkite 5y ago
This would be an interesting discussion, especially with space exploration and recycling tech fitted into the future picture, but not appropriate for the current topic.
zsz 5y ago
Seems to me that economic inequality would be the best facilitator of de-growth. If you could send the entire middle class into poverty ASAP, you could maximize de-growth overnight. Add a few draconian rules here and there, re-introduce good old rule of man principles, along with public executions to keep the upstarts in check, and you can have yourself a semi-permanent utopia of de-growth. Take for example North Korea (among the most advanced places in the world right now, in terms of comprehensive de-growth policies): with their ~540 kWh electricity consumption and just .71t CO2 per capita emission (compared to USA: 11.8 MWh and 15.12t CO2), they are experts in the field of de-growth that all other modern societies should endeavor to emulate.
- mrtesthah 5y ago
  The goal is to decrease the size of the economy while simultaneously increasing the quality of life for the majority of people on the planet. Most people already work in useless jobs (e.g., marketing, administration, etc.), and a shutdown of most extractive industries would give people substantially more free time. We can thank capitalism and technology for today’s high productivity level, but we need a properly functioning welfare/UBI system to take actually advantage of it, and so the global distribution of wealth will will need to change to ensure peoples’ basic needs are met. Addressing inequality is similarly important for halting the rise of political authoritarianism (as it grows in reaction to the former), which is an obstacle to all these changes.
sershe 5y ago
What are you basing this on? The most dire (serious, i.e. IPCC) forecasts I've seen so far are a few percent of global GDP lost due to climate change. Global GDP grows by 3-4% in normal years recently, so the "forced degrowth" would be an equivalent of just 2-4 years of stagnation.

lenkite 5y ago

This would be an interesting discussion, especially with space exploration and recycling tech fitted into the future picture, but not appropriate for the current topic.

zsz 5y ago

Seems to me that economic inequality would be the best facilitator of de-growth. If you could send the entire middle class into poverty ASAP, you could maximize de-growth overnight. Add a few draconian rules here and there, re-introduce good old rule of man principles, along with public executions to keep the upstarts in check, and you can have yourself a semi-permanent utopia of de-growth. Take for example North Korea (among the most advanced places in the world right now, in terms of comprehensive de-growth policies): with their ~540 kWh electricity consumption and just .71t CO2 per capita emission (compared to USA: 11.8 MWh and 15.12t CO2), they are experts in the field of de-growth that all other modern societies should endeavor to emulate.

mrtesthah 5y ago
The goal is to decrease the size of the economy while simultaneously increasing the quality of life for the majority of people on the planet. Most people already work in useless jobs (e.g., marketing, administration, etc.), and a shutdown of most extractive industries would give people substantially more free time. We can thank capitalism and technology for today’s high productivity level, but we need a properly functioning welfare/UBI system to take actually advantage of it, and so the global distribution of wealth will will need to change to ensure peoples’ basic needs are met. Addressing inequality is similarly important for halting the rise of political authoritarianism (as it grows in reaction to the former), which is an obstacle to all these changes.

sershe 5y ago

What are you basing this on? The most dire (serious, i.e. IPCC) forecasts I've seen so far are a few percent of global GDP lost due to climate change. Global GDP grows by 3-4% in normal years recently, so the "forced degrowth" would be an equivalent of just 2-4 years of stagnation.