6 ms·

> A company’s messaging or social media app is interoperable, to prevent users feeling forced to use one or the other because that’s where their friends are Am

> A company’s messaging or social media app is interoperable, to prevent users feeling forced to use one or the other because that’s where their friends are Am I wrong or is this revolutionary?

nathanaldensr 5y ago
Well, it would be if there's actual enforcement. But if GDPR is anything to go by, it'll just be words on a page.
- ginko 5y ago
  https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ https://www.enforcementtracker.com/
  - nathanaldensr 5y ago
    Nice! Thanks for this. Now I can turn my feeling into a reasoned argument. :)
    - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
      given that the site linked showed a number of cases of enforcement - how?
      - emptysongglass 5y ago
        Because they're very few and for pocket change that barely amounts to a wrist slap. Until you've been in the position of filing a GDPR complaint yourself it's easy to imagine that GDPR enforcement is effective. That couldn't be further from the truth. Compliance officers (yes the people you're supposed to complain to) will do everything in their power to invalidate your claim and will then drag your complaint through enough Kafkaesque bureaucracy to make you throw your hands up in defeat. I can only speak from my own experience but go ahead and filter by my own nation's (Denmark) successful fines of businesses. That list is paltry and full of fines that each amount to less than two months pay in most cases of a single employee.
        mhitza 5y ago
        I got the same impression while skimming over a bunch of meagerly fines of a couple thousand euros. But then I saw the graphs https://www.enforcementtracker.com/?insights https://www.enforcementtracker.com/?insights which might inspire most trust. Maybe DPAs are slowly learning and improving their process? I know that I tried to file a complaint in Romania back in 2019 and it was a huge hassle to do, with a large form with all types of info I didn't have easy access too (like the onus was on me to provide company information, contact details, etc). Whereas when I checked out the complaint form this year it only included a few fields, that made sense.
        bryanrasmussen 5y ago
        In the case of Denmark more than half of those were governmental, which generally have less skin in the GDPR game, and out of those left only two of them made me think wow I bet those guys have enough money that these fines won't be more than an irritant and one of them was a non-profit. Aside from all that if I was one of the people handing out fines my thinking would be like this, first I would ramp up so start giving smaller fines, and then when people I was fining were not changing their behavior I would keep increasing the fines. If for example someone gave Arp Hansen Hotel Group A/S a significant percentage of its revenue as a fine the first time people would be up in arms and complain a lot, so then I give them a slap on the wrist of 147,800 euros - which in the average Dane's view would sound like a lot - and ramp up the next time to maybe 220000, then the next 400000 - and then if they keep on give them a million. At that point no matter what PR campaign is done to make them seem the victim it will be a hard sell, they were warned fined multiple small fines and never fixed up their act. Who can blame us? At the same time I would also want to keep my view to what people were giving national and international bad actors in other countries, I would want my actions to look reasonable in relation to those. Speaking of which I saw Ireland: Fine against WhatsApp Ireland Ltd in the amount of EUR 225 million The Irish DPA (DPC) has fined WhatsApp Ireland Ltd. EUR 225 million for breaches of the GDPR in relation to the provision of information and the transparency of that information to users and non-users of WhatsApp. And Luxembourg: Fine against Amazon Europe Core S.a r.l. in the amount of EUR 746,000,000 In its quarterly report, Amazon.com Inc. announced that the DPA from Luxembourg (CNPD) had fined Amazon Europe Core S.a r.l. EUR 746,000,000 for failing to process personal data in compliance with the GDPR. These are also relative slaps on the wrist, but of course the problem for these companies with these fines is that just one fine might be a slap but 20 or so and you might start to get a welt on that wrist. at any rate - I would not expect anyone to issue a fine of of 4% of annual global turnover – whichever is greater - the first two or three fines that are given out to any company - unless Facebook has some leak that shows them spelling out their plan to break the law and do what they want with EU citizen data because screw the EU! >full of fines that each amount to less than two months pay in most cases of a single employee. Aside from the municipalities / regions, I see two companies that had fines small enough to be possibly two months pay of a highly paid employee, the other ones sure maybe if we're talking at top management levels but that's sort of misleading. At any rate it's not two months of a janitor's wages - unless we're talking about the municipalities.
      - fmajid 5y ago
        The Irish DPC is notorious for dragging its feet and sabotage, as if it were an arm of the Irish Development Agency whispering to multinationals "come set up your offices in Ireland, we will shelter you from GDPR". Latest case in point: https://noyb.eu/en/irish-dpc-removes-noyb-gdpr-procedure-criminal-report-filed https://noyb.eu/en/irish-dpc-removes-noyb-gdpr-procedure-cri...
    - elliekelly 5y ago
      Don’t forget to explore the data before coming to a conclusion.
- cotillion 5y ago
  When the words on the page are "Minimum level of fines of 4% and up to 20% of total turnover " it might be time to start to listen. And for systematic non-compliance “structural or behavioural remedies”.
1cvmask 5y ago
I agree. How do you draw the line. Does Slack have to integrate with Tinder or Whatsapp? And then there is the security issue of end-to-end encryption and the lowest common denominator. Basically the most insecure messaging app will be the attack vector. And there is no chance to have some form of security through obscurity if you are say a targeted journalist.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > Does Slack have to integrate with Tinder or Whatsapp? Federation and bridge services are nothing new. Facebook's messenger used to allow XMPP clients years ago. Now that at least the big platforms actually are mandated to provide open access for interoperability, maybe we can see some innovation in that field again. The interesting thing will be stuff like feeds - how do you solve cross-platform activity feeds without creating massive privacy liabilities?
- Shish2k 5y ago
  Reading the actual document, I don’t see anything about “interoperability” implying “federation” - it’s more like “third-party clients must be allowed to use the same APIs as first-party clients”
  - ISL 5y ago
    A third-party client that aggregates content from Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Mastodon, strips all of the ads, and orders posts in the order desired by the user will, in aggregate, be a game-changer. Not being able to split-test reliably for all users will also have a huge impact for the walled gardens.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tomjen3 5y ago
    That would be fantastic. The world needs pidgin 2.0 where all the services are aggregated and serve the user.
  - 5y ago

> A company’s messaging or social media app is interoperable, to prevent users feeling forced to use one or the other because that’s where their friends are Am I wrong or is this revolutionary?

nathanaldensr 5y ago

Well, it would be if there's actual enforcement. But if GDPR is anything to go by, it'll just be words on a page.

ginko 5y ago
https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ https://www.enforcementtracker.com/
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
  Nice! Thanks for this. Now I can turn my feeling into a reasoned argument. :)
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    given that the site linked showed a number of cases of enforcement - how?
    - emptysongglass 5y ago
      Because they're very few and for pocket change that barely amounts to a wrist slap. Until you've been in the position of filing a GDPR complaint yourself it's easy to imagine that GDPR enforcement is effective. That couldn't be further from the truth. Compliance officers (yes the people you're supposed to complain to) will do everything in their power to invalidate your claim and will then drag your complaint through enough Kafkaesque bureaucracy to make you throw your hands up in defeat. I can only speak from my own experience but go ahead and filter by my own nation's (Denmark) successful fines of businesses. That list is paltry and full of fines that each amount to less than two months pay in most cases of a single employee.
      - mhitza 5y ago
        I got the same impression while skimming over a bunch of meagerly fines of a couple thousand euros. But then I saw the graphs https://www.enforcementtracker.com/?insights https://www.enforcementtracker.com/?insights which might inspire most trust. Maybe DPAs are slowly learning and improving their process? I know that I tried to file a complaint in Romania back in 2019 and it was a huge hassle to do, with a large form with all types of info I didn't have easy access too (like the onus was on me to provide company information, contact details, etc). Whereas when I checked out the complaint form this year it only included a few fields, that made sense.
      - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
        In the case of Denmark more than half of those were governmental, which generally have less skin in the GDPR game, and out of those left only two of them made me think wow I bet those guys have enough money that these fines won't be more than an irritant and one of them was a non-profit. Aside from all that if I was one of the people handing out fines my thinking would be like this, first I would ramp up so start giving smaller fines, and then when people I was fining were not changing their behavior I would keep increasing the fines. If for example someone gave Arp Hansen Hotel Group A/S a significant percentage of its revenue as a fine the first time people would be up in arms and complain a lot, so then I give them a slap on the wrist of 147,800 euros - which in the average Dane's view would sound like a lot - and ramp up the next time to maybe 220000, then the next 400000 - and then if they keep on give them a million. At that point no matter what PR campaign is done to make them seem the victim it will be a hard sell, they were warned fined multiple small fines and never fixed up their act. Who can blame us? At the same time I would also want to keep my view to what people were giving national and international bad actors in other countries, I would want my actions to look reasonable in relation to those. Speaking of which I saw Ireland: Fine against WhatsApp Ireland Ltd in the amount of EUR 225 million The Irish DPA (DPC) has fined WhatsApp Ireland Ltd. EUR 225 million for breaches of the GDPR in relation to the provision of information and the transparency of that information to users and non-users of WhatsApp. And Luxembourg: Fine against Amazon Europe Core S.a r.l. in the amount of EUR 746,000,000 In its quarterly report, Amazon.com Inc. announced that the DPA from Luxembourg (CNPD) had fined Amazon Europe Core S.a r.l. EUR 746,000,000 for failing to process personal data in compliance with the GDPR. These are also relative slaps on the wrist, but of course the problem for these companies with these fines is that just one fine might be a slap but 20 or so and you might start to get a welt on that wrist. at any rate - I would not expect anyone to issue a fine of of 4% of annual global turnover – whichever is greater - the first two or three fines that are given out to any company - unless Facebook has some leak that shows them spelling out their plan to break the law and do what they want with EU citizen data because screw the EU! >full of fines that each amount to less than two months pay in most cases of a single employee. Aside from the municipalities / regions, I see two companies that had fines small enough to be possibly two months pay of a highly paid employee, the other ones sure maybe if we're talking at top management levels but that's sort of misleading. At any rate it's not two months of a janitor's wages - unless we're talking about the municipalities.
    - fmajid 5y ago
      The Irish DPC is notorious for dragging its feet and sabotage, as if it were an arm of the Irish Development Agency whispering to multinationals "come set up your offices in Ireland, we will shelter you from GDPR". Latest case in point: https://noyb.eu/en/irish-dpc-removes-noyb-gdpr-procedure-criminal-report-filed https://noyb.eu/en/irish-dpc-removes-noyb-gdpr-procedure-cri...
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    Don’t forget to explore the data before coming to a conclusion.
cotillion 5y ago
When the words on the page are "Minimum level of fines of 4% and up to 20% of total turnover " it might be time to start to listen. And for systematic non-compliance “structural or behavioural remedies”.

1cvmask 5y ago

I agree. How do you draw the line. Does Slack have to integrate with Tinder or Whatsapp? And then there is the security issue of end-to-end encryption and the lowest common denominator. Basically the most insecure messaging app will be the attack vector. And there is no chance to have some form of security through obscurity if you are say a targeted journalist.

mschuster91 5y ago
> Does Slack have to integrate with Tinder or Whatsapp? Federation and bridge services are nothing new. Facebook's messenger used to allow XMPP clients years ago. Now that at least the big platforms actually are mandated to provide open access for interoperability, maybe we can see some innovation in that field again. The interesting thing will be stuff like feeds - how do you solve cross-platform activity feeds without creating massive privacy liabilities?
Shish2k 5y ago
Reading the actual document, I don’t see anything about “interoperability” implying “federation” - it’s more like “third-party clients must be allowed to use the same APIs as first-party clients”
- ISL 5y ago
  A third-party client that aggregates content from Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Mastodon, strips all of the ads, and orders posts in the order desired by the user will, in aggregate, be a game-changer. Not being able to split-test reliably for all users will also have a huge impact for the walled gardens.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tomjen3 5y ago
  That would be fantastic. The world needs pidgin 2.0 where all the services are aggregated and serve the user.
- 5y ago