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> In a better world we'd have a good substitute for alcohol that had similar effects but much less serious health concerns You are thinking about self administ

by GDC7 5y ago

> In a better world we'd have a good substitute for alcohol that had similar effects but much less serious health concerns You are thinking about self administration of GHB, but people need to be really careful because 2 mL is a recipe for a fun night, whereas 7 mL will get you in ICU. Bur vis-a-vis alcohol it has big advantages. No liver problems, no kidney problems, no clogging of arteries, no cardiomiopathy or inflammation... But again people need to be paranoid before its use, in order to diligently respect the quantities. The administration at a party would be a gig for companies, because you'd need the same level of professionality as say the security services for a VIP party.

donkeyd 5y ago
GHB is a horrible alternative to alcohol. I really don't understand why you think that is not the case. GHB is highly addictive, dosing is hard, it's really unhealthy with long term use and is nearly impossible to stop doing once you're addicted. In the Netherlands, the percentage of people that relapse after rehabilitating from GHB is the highest of all drugs, including alcohol.
- GDC7 5y ago
  > In the Netherlands, the percentage of people that relapse after rehabilitating from GHB is the highest of all drugs, including alcohol. Humans love alcohol-like feelings, so the comparison is vis-a-vis against alcohol. Alcohol relapse statistics are on a much higer sample given how widespread it is, whereas for G the sample is much smaller. Also among the people who don't relapse are also included in those who die or have their bodies so screwed up that have no alternative but quitting if they want to keep living. Alcohol does that to a whole lot of people who technically don't relapse....but don't breath anymore either. G doesn't cause any liver, heart, kidney, cardiac, valvular, stomach, arterial, testicular damage, so of course people will come back for more. If the only negative effects are psychological then it's a testimony to the amazing proprieties of the substance. Also in science the standard practice is that if you can't measure it then there is no point talking about it or even discussing it. We don't know what happens inside our brains, the mechanisms of addiction and so forth.. we can only evaluate the effects.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    >Humans love alcohol-like feelings, so the comparison is vis-a-vis against alcohol. Some humans love the feeling of being in an inebriated state commonly brought on by the use of alcohol. The amount of people addicted to other drugs shows it is not just the drunkeness of alcohol people are after. However, the simple fact that alcohol is legal and readily available means that's the thing people use to achieve this inebriated state. Allow other substances to be legal and destigmatized the way alcohol has been, and you will see numbers change.
    - GDC7 5y ago
      You have it the other way around. Alcohol is legal because people love to be inebiated more than they like being stoned or on a paranoid coke binge, or nodding off due to heroin Majority rules , and so the preference with regards to the feeling of being inebriated + collective risk tolerance of society + the variability of alcoholic beverages + the low cost of the substance made it so that alcohol emerged .
      - engineeringwoke 5y ago
        No, it's because primates have been eating rotten fruit for tens of thousands of years to get high, and primates can't run a chemistry lab.
  - donkeyd 5y ago
    > Alcohol relapse statistics are on a much higer sample given how widespread it is, whereas for G the sample is much smaller. Does that imply we can never compare smaller data sets with larger ones? GHB is becoming a huge issue in the Netherlands to the point that there aren't enough rehab spots. So I would assume the amount of data is not insignificant and can therefore be compared. > Alcohol does that to a whole lot of people who technically don't relapse....but don't breath anymore either. So does GHB. > G doesn't cause any liver, heart, kidney, cardiac, valvular, stomach, arterial, testicular damage, so of course people will come back for more. You retort to my argument was that the data set for GHB was much smaller. How does that not matter with your argument? Also, GHB is associated with cognitive changes and potential brain damage. So you might come back for more, but you won't be the same person: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181008104628.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181008104628.h... > Also in science the standard practice is that if you can't measure it then there is no point talking about it or even discussing it. Which part can't you measure? You can measure relapse percentages. You can measure addiction rates. You can measure the length of an addiction. You can measure the physiological and metal impact of an addiction. And it's not like nobody is doing that either.
enriquto 5y ago
> need to be really careful because 2 mL is a recipe for a fun night, whereas 7 mL will get you in ICU. But it's the same thing with regular alcohol, isn't it? Half a bottle of liquor is a fun night, whereas three bottles surely will kill you. As long as it is diluted in practical quantities it doesn't seem like a big deal. That said, they'll pry my saturday evening glass of scotch from my cold, dead hands.
- GDC7 5y ago
  The problem is that it's really really hard to gulp down 3 bottles of liquor. Plus unlike G you are not involved in the preparation, a better comparison would be having a substance called super-duper-liquor that you'd have to dilute yourself with water in order to make sure that it's indeed 3 bottles of liquor needed to send you in ICU. If you screw up the dilution of the super-duper-liquor you can end up in ICU after just a sip, and you'd not notice because it doesn't have a taste or a smell. Plus let's face it, humans were never made to deal with liquid quantities in mL , we were made to deal in liters or even deca-liters, because that's the measuring unit of the most important liquid for humans: H2O Few mL of water aren't good for anything.
  - erikbye 5y ago
    > super-duper-liquor that you'd have to dilute yourself We have that in Norway, hjemmebrent, we just call it 9 6 (96%), aka moonshine.
    - codetrotter 5y ago
      Also illegal and not sold in stores.
      - kaslai 5y ago
        In the US, 95% ABV Everclear is readily available in most states. 75.5% ABV Everclear is available in even more. It's the easiest way to get near azeotropic food safe ethanol for making extracts.
kevinmchugh 5y ago
We often choose to consume alcohol in a setting with trained, paid drug administrators. There's some safety features to that. But we also can self-administer, in large part because you can see how strong a drink is, right on the package. I think GP is suggesting that, absent the lobbying power of the alcohol industry, you might see commercial development of safer ways of dosing alternatives. If you could go to the store and buy a sealed bottle with 0.5mg ghb that might be compelling for some folks?
- mjbeswick 5y ago
  It's a nice idea, but GHB really isn't safe. While it's pretty hard to kill yourself with alcohol, but very easy using GHB. Even experienced users mess up with GHB, as it matters how much you are taking over time, and how much is being absorbed.
- dylan604 5y ago
  Are you calling bar tenders trained paid drug administrators making it sound like they have medical training? I want to go to the bars you visit. Of all the bar tenders or waitstaff that I have ever met, the closest to medical training were from the ones attending med school and working at the bar to pay for it. I don't think that qualifies.
  - kevinmchugh 5y ago
    It's more that I've known friends who think it's appropriate to put 3oz vodka in lemonade and call that a single drink, or they don't measure at all and one drink has 1oz of vodka and the next has 2.5. At bars you get pretty consistent pours, bartenders are watching for overconsumption and often for potential DUIs. And you don't, typically, have to worry about a bartender spiking a drink with something else. All of that helps make alcohol consumption with strangers safer. A lot of the drug safety education for alcohol boils down to knowing how much alcohol is in each drink, and that there's nothing else intoxicating in it.
    - dylan604 5y ago
gavinray 5y ago
Came here to say this, GHB is what the commenter is asking for. My partner is legally prescribed it for narcolepsy (Xyrem), and takes 4.5mL twice a night.
- engineeringwoke 5y ago
  I can think of few stranger things that I have experienced in my life than being around a group of G hounds. It's like the Twilight Zone, and no, G is not safe and the effects are quite different than alcohol. It would never be widely popular to do a drug that so easily creates lapses in short-term memory... I think it is well-known why that is.
  - gavinray 5y ago
    You can make the same argument about alcohol. Plenty of homeless drunkards in the streets, alcoholism is rampant. > G is not safe Sure. Side effects of alcohol overdose include death by alcohol poisoning. Side effects of GHB overdose include death by central nervous system depression + consequent respiratory arrest. Side effects of Tylenol overdose include an excruciatingly painful, multi-day death from multiple organ failure. See the pattern? Both drinking and GHB are capable of causing memory loss. > The effects are quite different than alcohol This is subjective. To me, it feels exactly like "More euphoric alcohol, without the stupidity/reduced cognitive facilities drinking brings, and not toxic-feeling on my body." YMMV.
    - engineeringwoke 5y ago
      It takes a whole lot of alcohol to get the equivalent of that G zombie look. And the latter can easily kill you. GHB is not a panacea. It can turn people into animals.
mjbeswick 5y ago
You mention GHB, but as you mention to dosing in ml I expect you actually mean GBL. It's really not as safe as you make out, as the dose needed to OD isn't much more than a recreational dose. When you overdose on GHB you can become aggressive, lose consciousness, lose all short term memories; and worse case fall into a coma and even die. The margin of error is just too small! If you take GHB for a long time you can build up a tolerance and become dependant one it. The withdrawal is terrible and depending on how dependant some os can result in post acute withdrawal syndrome, in which case you can't just stop taking it as the result could be fatal.

by GDC7 5y ago

donkeyd 5y ago

GHB is a horrible alternative to alcohol. I really don't understand why you think that is not the case. GHB is highly addictive, dosing is hard, it's really unhealthy with long term use and is nearly impossible to stop doing once you're addicted. In the Netherlands, the percentage of people that relapse after rehabilitating from GHB is the highest of all drugs, including alcohol.

GDC7 5y ago
> In the Netherlands, the percentage of people that relapse after rehabilitating from GHB is the highest of all drugs, including alcohol. Humans love alcohol-like feelings, so the comparison is vis-a-vis against alcohol. Alcohol relapse statistics are on a much higer sample given how widespread it is, whereas for G the sample is much smaller. Also among the people who don't relapse are also included in those who die or have their bodies so screwed up that have no alternative but quitting if they want to keep living. Alcohol does that to a whole lot of people who technically don't relapse....but don't breath anymore either. G doesn't cause any liver, heart, kidney, cardiac, valvular, stomach, arterial, testicular damage, so of course people will come back for more. If the only negative effects are psychological then it's a testimony to the amazing proprieties of the substance. Also in science the standard practice is that if you can't measure it then there is no point talking about it or even discussing it. We don't know what happens inside our brains, the mechanisms of addiction and so forth.. we can only evaluate the effects.
- dylan604 5y ago
  >Humans love alcohol-like feelings, so the comparison is vis-a-vis against alcohol. Some humans love the feeling of being in an inebriated state commonly brought on by the use of alcohol. The amount of people addicted to other drugs shows it is not just the drunkeness of alcohol people are after. However, the simple fact that alcohol is legal and readily available means that's the thing people use to achieve this inebriated state. Allow other substances to be legal and destigmatized the way alcohol has been, and you will see numbers change.
  - GDC7 5y ago
    You have it the other way around. Alcohol is legal because people love to be inebiated more than they like being stoned or on a paranoid coke binge, or nodding off due to heroin Majority rules , and so the preference with regards to the feeling of being inebriated + collective risk tolerance of society + the variability of alcoholic beverages + the low cost of the substance made it so that alcohol emerged .
    - engineeringwoke 5y ago
      No, it's because primates have been eating rotten fruit for tens of thousands of years to get high, and primates can't run a chemistry lab.
- donkeyd 5y ago
  > Alcohol relapse statistics are on a much higer sample given how widespread it is, whereas for G the sample is much smaller. Does that imply we can never compare smaller data sets with larger ones? GHB is becoming a huge issue in the Netherlands to the point that there aren't enough rehab spots. So I would assume the amount of data is not insignificant and can therefore be compared. > Alcohol does that to a whole lot of people who technically don't relapse....but don't breath anymore either. So does GHB. > G doesn't cause any liver, heart, kidney, cardiac, valvular, stomach, arterial, testicular damage, so of course people will come back for more. You retort to my argument was that the data set for GHB was much smaller. How does that not matter with your argument? Also, GHB is associated with cognitive changes and potential brain damage. So you might come back for more, but you won't be the same person: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181008104628.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181008104628.h... > Also in science the standard practice is that if you can't measure it then there is no point talking about it or even discussing it. Which part can't you measure? You can measure relapse percentages. You can measure addiction rates. You can measure the length of an addiction. You can measure the physiological and metal impact of an addiction. And it's not like nobody is doing that either.

enriquto 5y ago

> need to be really careful because 2 mL is a recipe for a fun night, whereas 7 mL will get you in ICU. But it's the same thing with regular alcohol, isn't it? Half a bottle of liquor is a fun night, whereas three bottles surely will kill you. As long as it is diluted in practical quantities it doesn't seem like a big deal. That said, they'll pry my saturday evening glass of scotch from my cold, dead hands.

GDC7 5y ago
The problem is that it's really really hard to gulp down 3 bottles of liquor. Plus unlike G you are not involved in the preparation, a better comparison would be having a substance called super-duper-liquor that you'd have to dilute yourself with water in order to make sure that it's indeed 3 bottles of liquor needed to send you in ICU. If you screw up the dilution of the super-duper-liquor you can end up in ICU after just a sip, and you'd not notice because it doesn't have a taste or a smell. Plus let's face it, humans were never made to deal with liquid quantities in mL , we were made to deal in liters or even deca-liters, because that's the measuring unit of the most important liquid for humans: H2O Few mL of water aren't good for anything.
- erikbye 5y ago
  > super-duper-liquor that you'd have to dilute yourself We have that in Norway, hjemmebrent, we just call it 9 6 (96%), aka moonshine.
  - codetrotter 5y ago
    Also illegal and not sold in stores.
    - kaslai 5y ago
      In the US, 95% ABV Everclear is readily available in most states. 75.5% ABV Everclear is available in even more. It's the easiest way to get near azeotropic food safe ethanol for making extracts.

kevinmchugh 5y ago

We often choose to consume alcohol in a setting with trained, paid drug administrators. There's some safety features to that. But we also can self-administer, in large part because you can see how strong a drink is, right on the package. I think GP is suggesting that, absent the lobbying power of the alcohol industry, you might see commercial development of safer ways of dosing alternatives. If you could go to the store and buy a sealed bottle with 0.5mg ghb that might be compelling for some folks?

mjbeswick 5y ago
It's a nice idea, but GHB really isn't safe. While it's pretty hard to kill yourself with alcohol, but very easy using GHB. Even experienced users mess up with GHB, as it matters how much you are taking over time, and how much is being absorbed.
dylan604 5y ago
Are you calling bar tenders trained paid drug administrators making it sound like they have medical training? I want to go to the bars you visit. Of all the bar tenders or waitstaff that I have ever met, the closest to medical training were from the ones attending med school and working at the bar to pay for it. I don't think that qualifies.
- kevinmchugh 5y ago
  It's more that I've known friends who think it's appropriate to put 3oz vodka in lemonade and call that a single drink, or they don't measure at all and one drink has 1oz of vodka and the next has 2.5. At bars you get pretty consistent pours, bartenders are watching for overconsumption and often for potential DUIs. And you don't, typically, have to worry about a bartender spiking a drink with something else. All of that helps make alcohol consumption with strangers safer. A lot of the drug safety education for alcohol boils down to knowing how much alcohol is in each drink, and that there's nothing else intoxicating in it.
  - dylan604 5y ago

gavinray 5y ago

Came here to say this, GHB is what the commenter is asking for. My partner is legally prescribed it for narcolepsy (Xyrem), and takes 4.5mL twice a night.

engineeringwoke 5y ago
I can think of few stranger things that I have experienced in my life than being around a group of G hounds. It's like the Twilight Zone, and no, G is not safe and the effects are quite different than alcohol. It would never be widely popular to do a drug that so easily creates lapses in short-term memory... I think it is well-known why that is.
- gavinray 5y ago
  You can make the same argument about alcohol. Plenty of homeless drunkards in the streets, alcoholism is rampant. > G is not safe Sure. Side effects of alcohol overdose include death by alcohol poisoning. Side effects of GHB overdose include death by central nervous system depression + consequent respiratory arrest. Side effects of Tylenol overdose include an excruciatingly painful, multi-day death from multiple organ failure. See the pattern? Both drinking and GHB are capable of causing memory loss. > The effects are quite different than alcohol This is subjective. To me, it feels exactly like "More euphoric alcohol, without the stupidity/reduced cognitive facilities drinking brings, and not toxic-feeling on my body." YMMV.
  - engineeringwoke 5y ago
    It takes a whole lot of alcohol to get the equivalent of that G zombie look. And the latter can easily kill you. GHB is not a panacea. It can turn people into animals.

mjbeswick 5y ago

You mention GHB, but as you mention to dosing in ml I expect you actually mean GBL. It's really not as safe as you make out, as the dose needed to OD isn't much more than a recreational dose. When you overdose on GHB you can become aggressive, lose consciousness, lose all short term memories; and worse case fall into a coma and even die. The margin of error is just too small! If you take GHB for a long time you can build up a tolerance and become dependant one it. The withdrawal is terrible and depending on how dependant some os can result in post acute withdrawal syndrome, in which case you can't just stop taking it as the result could be fatal.