14 ms·

> As for alcohol, I don't think so. People will still want to get wasted, even knowing that it is bad for the health. In a better world we'd have a good substi

> As for alcohol, I don't think so. People will still want to get wasted, even knowing that it is bad for the health. In a better world we'd have a good substitute for alcohol that had similar effects but much less serious health concerns. This should be a major research target, but for stupid political reasons it isn't.

__MatrixMan__ 5y ago
There's a whole zoo of recreational drugs that are safer to do in moderation than alcohol is to do consistently. Rather than replace alcohol, I think we should just get better at educating: - when is it safe to use a given drug? so we can get to the business of exploring: - which drugs are best paired with which intentions, moods, environments, etc?
- chimprich 5y ago
  > There's a whole zoo of recreational drugs that are safer to do in moderation than alcohol is to do consistently Which ones are you thinking of? Are any of them similar to alcohol in effects? (Light euphoria, increased socialisation, mild confidence boost, pleasant method of application?)
GDC7 5y ago
> In a better world we'd have a good substitute for alcohol that had similar effects but much less serious health concerns You are thinking about self administration of GHB, but people need to be really careful because 2 mL is a recipe for a fun night, whereas 7 mL will get you in ICU. Bur vis-a-vis alcohol it has big advantages. No liver problems, no kidney problems, no clogging of arteries, no cardiomiopathy or inflammation... But again people need to be paranoid before its use, in order to diligently respect the quantities. The administration at a party would be a gig for companies, because you'd need the same level of professionality as say the security services for a VIP party.
- donkeyd 5y ago
  GHB is a horrible alternative to alcohol. I really don't understand why you think that is not the case. GHB is highly addictive, dosing is hard, it's really unhealthy with long term use and is nearly impossible to stop doing once you're addicted. In the Netherlands, the percentage of people that relapse after rehabilitating from GHB is the highest of all drugs, including alcohol.
  - GDC7 5y ago
    > In the Netherlands, the percentage of people that relapse after rehabilitating from GHB is the highest of all drugs, including alcohol. Humans love alcohol-like feelings, so the comparison is vis-a-vis against alcohol. Alcohol relapse statistics are on a much higer sample given how widespread it is, whereas for G the sample is much smaller. Also among the people who don't relapse are also included in those who die or have their bodies so screwed up that have no alternative but quitting if they want to keep living. Alcohol does that to a whole lot of people who technically don't relapse....but don't breath anymore either. G doesn't cause any liver, heart, kidney, cardiac, valvular, stomach, arterial, testicular damage, so of course people will come back for more. If the only negative effects are psychological then it's a testimony to the amazing proprieties of the substance. Also in science the standard practice is that if you can't measure it then there is no point talking about it or even discussing it. We don't know what happens inside our brains, the mechanisms of addiction and so forth.. we can only evaluate the effects.
    - dylan604 5y ago
      >Humans love alcohol-like feelings, so the comparison is vis-a-vis against alcohol. Some humans love the feeling of being in an inebriated state commonly brought on by the use of alcohol. The amount of people addicted to other drugs shows it is not just the drunkeness of alcohol people are after. However, the simple fact that alcohol is legal and readily available means that's the thing people use to achieve this inebriated state. Allow other substances to be legal and destigmatized the way alcohol has been, and you will see numbers change.
somehnacct3757 5y ago
I think cannabis will eclipse alcohol once enough states legalize, and the federal winds shift in response. It has no hangover. Its long term effects are not understood (a boon vs alcohol where they're known and bad.) It's edible and drinkable. And it makes your patrons buy food. The bar of tomorrow will serve cannabis infused cocktails alongside alcohol. From the moment of federal deregulation it will only take a few years, like the arrival and commoditization of boozy seltzers. Today's cannabis manufacturers in legalized states are already building the infrastructure to hit the ground running.
- tlb 5y ago
  What has been preventing this happening in legal states already? Green bars and restaurants exist, but are a tiny segment of the market. I suspect it's that alcohol and socialization go well together, while cannabis doesn't so it's better to enjoy it at home than at a bar.
  - hoffspot 5y ago
    One contributing factor could be social stigma. The soccer moms of the world were brought up to "say No to drugs" where cannabis was one of those drugs. You can pry their glass of wine out of their cold, dead hands but I've personally seen them very nervous about a low dose edible. Perhaps some time and federal legalization will change that.
  - EvRev 5y ago
    The current breeding techniques have produced varieties that are not conducive to the socialization (i.e. sativa vs indica). After legalization the market will need to have the marketing for sativas/socialization strains that will drive the development of happy/euphoric/uplifiting strains that do not promote sleep.
    - guythedudebro 5y ago
      Lol. Society just hasn't tried the right strain yet
- 5y ago
brutusborn 5y ago
It _is_ a research target, and progress is going well! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt I'm interested as to where you got the idea of "stupid political reasons" blocking research, he literally released a good substitute this year.
- chimprich 5y ago
  Nutt's work was indeed one of the things I was thinking about. However, I think they're going to have a huge challenge to get their compound licensed. From the article you link to: "Nutt is also campaigning for a change in UK drug laws to allow for more research opportunities".

__MatrixMan__ 5y ago

There's a whole zoo of recreational drugs that are safer to do in moderation than alcohol is to do consistently. Rather than replace alcohol, I think we should just get better at educating: - when is it safe to use a given drug? so we can get to the business of exploring: - which drugs are best paired with which intentions, moods, environments, etc?

chimprich 5y ago
> There's a whole zoo of recreational drugs that are safer to do in moderation than alcohol is to do consistently Which ones are you thinking of? Are any of them similar to alcohol in effects? (Light euphoria, increased socialisation, mild confidence boost, pleasant method of application?)

GDC7 5y ago

> In a better world we'd have a good substitute for alcohol that had similar effects but much less serious health concerns You are thinking about self administration of GHB, but people need to be really careful because 2 mL is a recipe for a fun night, whereas 7 mL will get you in ICU. Bur vis-a-vis alcohol it has big advantages. No liver problems, no kidney problems, no clogging of arteries, no cardiomiopathy or inflammation... But again people need to be paranoid before its use, in order to diligently respect the quantities. The administration at a party would be a gig for companies, because you'd need the same level of professionality as say the security services for a VIP party.

donkeyd 5y ago
GHB is a horrible alternative to alcohol. I really don't understand why you think that is not the case. GHB is highly addictive, dosing is hard, it's really unhealthy with long term use and is nearly impossible to stop doing once you're addicted. In the Netherlands, the percentage of people that relapse after rehabilitating from GHB is the highest of all drugs, including alcohol.
- GDC7 5y ago
  > In the Netherlands, the percentage of people that relapse after rehabilitating from GHB is the highest of all drugs, including alcohol. Humans love alcohol-like feelings, so the comparison is vis-a-vis against alcohol. Alcohol relapse statistics are on a much higer sample given how widespread it is, whereas for G the sample is much smaller. Also among the people who don't relapse are also included in those who die or have their bodies so screwed up that have no alternative but quitting if they want to keep living. Alcohol does that to a whole lot of people who technically don't relapse....but don't breath anymore either. G doesn't cause any liver, heart, kidney, cardiac, valvular, stomach, arterial, testicular damage, so of course people will come back for more. If the only negative effects are psychological then it's a testimony to the amazing proprieties of the substance. Also in science the standard practice is that if you can't measure it then there is no point talking about it or even discussing it. We don't know what happens inside our brains, the mechanisms of addiction and so forth.. we can only evaluate the effects.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    >Humans love alcohol-like feelings, so the comparison is vis-a-vis against alcohol. Some humans love the feeling of being in an inebriated state commonly brought on by the use of alcohol. The amount of people addicted to other drugs shows it is not just the drunkeness of alcohol people are after. However, the simple fact that alcohol is legal and readily available means that's the thing people use to achieve this inebriated state. Allow other substances to be legal and destigmatized the way alcohol has been, and you will see numbers change.

somehnacct3757 5y ago

I think cannabis will eclipse alcohol once enough states legalize, and the federal winds shift in response. It has no hangover. Its long term effects are not understood (a boon vs alcohol where they're known and bad.) It's edible and drinkable. And it makes your patrons buy food. The bar of tomorrow will serve cannabis infused cocktails alongside alcohol. From the moment of federal deregulation it will only take a few years, like the arrival and commoditization of boozy seltzers. Today's cannabis manufacturers in legalized states are already building the infrastructure to hit the ground running.

tlb 5y ago
What has been preventing this happening in legal states already? Green bars and restaurants exist, but are a tiny segment of the market. I suspect it's that alcohol and socialization go well together, while cannabis doesn't so it's better to enjoy it at home than at a bar.
- hoffspot 5y ago
  One contributing factor could be social stigma. The soccer moms of the world were brought up to "say No to drugs" where cannabis was one of those drugs. You can pry their glass of wine out of their cold, dead hands but I've personally seen them very nervous about a low dose edible. Perhaps some time and federal legalization will change that.
- EvRev 5y ago
  The current breeding techniques have produced varieties that are not conducive to the socialization (i.e. sativa vs indica). After legalization the market will need to have the marketing for sativas/socialization strains that will drive the development of happy/euphoric/uplifiting strains that do not promote sleep.
  - guythedudebro 5y ago
    Lol. Society just hasn't tried the right strain yet
5y ago

brutusborn 5y ago

It _is_ a research target, and progress is going well! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt I'm interested as to where you got the idea of "stupid political reasons" blocking research, he literally released a good substitute this year.

chimprich 5y ago
Nutt's work was indeed one of the things I was thinking about. However, I think they're going to have a huge challenge to get their compound licensed. From the article you link to: "Nutt is also campaigning for a change in UK drug laws to allow for more research opportunities".