4 ms·

It’s rather opaque at least to me who the ‘rightful owners’ are: willing buyer and willing seller might suggest indigenous Cubans, but I doubt that would do muc

It’s rather opaque at least to me who the ‘rightful owners’ are: willing buyer and willing seller might suggest indigenous Cubans, but I doubt that would do much about the blockade, and might makes right would presumably suggest that the party is right. Moreover even if the ‘rightful owners’ of property were found, it’s far from obvious how that would solve geopolitical difficulties with the US; after all, all sorts of governments which violate most Americans’ notions of property rights are on very good terms with it. As for the possibility of spontaneously choosing ‘democracy over the support of the Castro family’, at best this is an almost vacuous statement akin to ‘if nobody were to litter there would be no more additional litter’. Even quite praiseworthy and courageous peoples have some difficulty overthrowing their governments (e.g. in Sudan, Myanmar, Hong Kong…); the ‘patriots at the Boston tea party’ made similar choices, but merely choosing revolt does not guarantee success. Finally, on the embargo: the medicines exception of course exists, but US sanctions can, if desired, affect trade with most of the world economy, since most companies have some connexion e.g. to the US financial system. To the extent that is not the case in Cuba, that is because the implicit suggestion of the original quote, viz., that were sanctions loosened certain economic benefits would accrue in Cuba, has itself either been implemented or not been contradicted by some contrary policy.

908B64B197 5y ago
> Even quite praiseworthy and courageous peoples have some difficulty overthrowing their governments (e.g. in Sudan, Myanmar, Hong Kong…); the ‘patriots at the Boston tea party’ made similar choices, but merely choosing revolt does not guarantee success. Democracy and freedom are never granted; they are fought for. > Finally, on the embargo: the medicines exception of course exists, but US sanctions can, if desired, affect trade with most of the world economy, since most companies have some connexion e.g. to the US financial system. If they would rather trade with Cuba than the US, that's their decision.
- WastingMyTime89 5y ago
  > Democracy and freedom are never granted; they are fought for. What a brave thing to say from the confort of your sofa. I mean you being American I imagine that should be read “they are fought for mostly by the French with French money and weapons in a proxy war against England”.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > they are fought for mostly by the French with French money and weapons Lafayette sure helped the revolution a lot, but it's a stretch to claim that it was France who liberated the US. You would need a lot of archeological findings to "find" all these extra french soldiers.
- eynsham 5y ago
  > Democracy and freedom are never granted; they are fought for This is not quite correct; sometimes they are both fought for and granted—as, e.g., in every mostly agreed decolonisation, or the path from Groote Schuur to the interim constitution, &c. &c. More to the point, that is precisely why I quibble with the claim that the people of Cuba ‘can stop this embargo tomorrow morning’; they could tomorrow start to fight for democratisation (which plausibly leads to the end of the blockade)—with no guarantee of success. > If they would rather trade with Cuba than the US, that's their decision. This is more goalpost-shifting; the initial claim here is ‘Cuba is also free to trade with 179 other countries in the world’, which it isn’t in the case where all the other countries decide not to trade with Cuba because of American pressure. Of course in this case it is also other countries’ decision quite how to respond to American pressure. Now it so happens that sanctions on Cuba do not seem to have as much extraterritorial effect as e.g. those on Iran, so the question does not in practice arise to the same extent as in this hypothetical. But your original point seems to be that a blockade by one country couldn’t be to blame for that much economic difficulty because other countries may not have instituted such a blockade themselves; this is, as a general point, wrong. (Incidentally, where does the number 179 come from? The UN alone has 193 members—and presumably one ought to add Taiwan &al.)

908B64B197 5y ago

> Even quite praiseworthy and courageous peoples have some difficulty overthrowing their governments (e.g. in Sudan, Myanmar, Hong Kong…); the ‘patriots at the Boston tea party’ made similar choices, but merely choosing revolt does not guarantee success. Democracy and freedom are never granted; they are fought for. > Finally, on the embargo: the medicines exception of course exists, but US sanctions can, if desired, affect trade with most of the world economy, since most companies have some connexion e.g. to the US financial system. If they would rather trade with Cuba than the US, that's their decision.

WastingMyTime89 5y ago
> Democracy and freedom are never granted; they are fought for. What a brave thing to say from the confort of your sofa. I mean you being American I imagine that should be read “they are fought for mostly by the French with French money and weapons in a proxy war against England”.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > they are fought for mostly by the French with French money and weapons Lafayette sure helped the revolution a lot, but it's a stretch to claim that it was France who liberated the US. You would need a lot of archeological findings to "find" all these extra french soldiers.
eynsham 5y ago
> Democracy and freedom are never granted; they are fought for This is not quite correct; sometimes they are both fought for and granted—as, e.g., in every mostly agreed decolonisation, or the path from Groote Schuur to the interim constitution, &c. &c. More to the point, that is precisely why I quibble with the claim that the people of Cuba ‘can stop this embargo tomorrow morning’; they could tomorrow start to fight for democratisation (which plausibly leads to the end of the blockade)—with no guarantee of success. > If they would rather trade with Cuba than the US, that's their decision. This is more goalpost-shifting; the initial claim here is ‘Cuba is also free to trade with 179 other countries in the world’, which it isn’t in the case where all the other countries decide not to trade with Cuba because of American pressure. Of course in this case it is also other countries’ decision quite how to respond to American pressure. Now it so happens that sanctions on Cuba do not seem to have as much extraterritorial effect as e.g. those on Iran, so the question does not in practice arise to the same extent as in this hypothetical. But your original point seems to be that a blockade by one country couldn’t be to blame for that much economic difficulty because other countries may not have instituted such a blockade themselves; this is, as a general point, wrong. (Incidentally, where does the number 179 come from? The UN alone has 193 members—and presumably one ought to add Taiwan &al.)