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Your story "proves" all the studies with sommeliers where they duped them into rating white wines (with red food coloring) as fancy red wines. All the sommelier

Your story "proves" all the studies with sommeliers where they duped them into rating white wines (with red food coloring) as fancy red wines. All the sommeliers failed the blind tests. In fact all those studies showed was that the taste of wine stemmed primarily from the perception of the bottle rather than the actual taste.

phonypc 5y ago
Might want to refresh your reading on this. AFAIK this is reference to one (unpublished) study where undergrad wine science students tended to choose from a list of descriptive terms usually associated with red wine to refer to dyed white wine, most of the time. It's certainly true that suggestion can change ones perception of wine (or any flavor), but I don't think it's clear that it's the primary factor.
- jpp 5y ago
  Yes, this is correct —- it’s actually a fascinating study, but the translation from French was done poorly and then the English-speaking media ran with the clickbait version. The original study finds that the terms we use for flavor (partly) encode the tuple of flavor and color. That is, given two identical smelling / tasting liquids, subjects will pick different vocabulary to describe the flavor when the liquid is red vs clear.
- smt88 5y ago
  There appears to be abundant evidence that wine-tasting is largely nonsense, including experiments done on wine judges: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-ta...
  - phonypc 5y ago
    There's evidence that wine judging is less objective than most people involved in it seem to believe. I'm not sure that justifies calling it nonsense, or misrepresenting a study as showing that experienced people can't even distinguish white from red.
    - smt88 5y ago
      The link I provided does not cite that study.
      - phonypc 5y ago
        It does actually, but that wasn't really my point in referring to it. More that the GP post misrepresenting the study isn't justified by other evidence of a lack of rigour in the field.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  I have lost count of the studies that can't tell the difference between a Fine wine, vs 2 buck chuck. (To the alcoholics out there, whom have tried all the programs, etc., to no avail, but want to cut back. There's a box white wine in most large grocery stores that has 9% alcohol. Most wine is 12% up to 17% I believe. It doesn't taste great, but that's a good thing, and it's pretty hard to develop a problem with it.)
darkerside 5y ago
Why should red and white wines taste so distinguishably different anyway? Because one is red colored and one is white? So what? Seems like your contempt here falls prey to the same biases as the sommeliers. Of course, you're not supposed to be an expert. But still, seems like a hypocritical thing to make fun of someone else for.
- Niksko 5y ago
  Because there is a fundamental difference in how they're made: red wines spend more time in contact with grape skins, while white wines don't. Grape skins contain tannins and other compounds that end up in the wine, and humans can perceive these compounds. You might question whether there is enough difference to warrant the perceived difference in flavor, but there are definitely quantitatively measurable differences in composition of typical red and white wines that would lead you to posit that they would taste different.
  - darkerside 5y ago
    I'm not saying they're literally the same. There are also invisible differences between any two wines that have MUCH MORE impact on the taste profile. Red and white can even be the same grape. Are the skins really more impactful than, for example, the type of grape, how the wine was aged, or for how long? Why is the color so important? Mostly because it's visible to us noobs.
- 542354234235 5y ago
  >Because one is red colored and one is white? So what? So what depends on why things are different colors. For instance, red velvet cake is just vanilla cake dyed red with food coloring. In that case, there wouldn’t be a difference in taste. On the other end, vanilla bean ice cream has black specks distributed throughout from the contents of the vanilla bean itself. If you substituted black pepper, it might look the same but it would not taste the same. As Niksko explained, red and white wine are different due to differences in ingredients and different processes which impart different flavor and color.
  - 5y ago

phonypc 5y ago

Might want to refresh your reading on this. AFAIK this is reference to one (unpublished) study where undergrad wine science students tended to choose from a list of descriptive terms usually associated with red wine to refer to dyed white wine, most of the time. It's certainly true that suggestion can change ones perception of wine (or any flavor), but I don't think it's clear that it's the primary factor.

jpp 5y ago
Yes, this is correct —- it’s actually a fascinating study, but the translation from French was done poorly and then the English-speaking media ran with the clickbait version. The original study finds that the terms we use for flavor (partly) encode the tuple of flavor and color. That is, given two identical smelling / tasting liquids, subjects will pick different vocabulary to describe the flavor when the liquid is red vs clear.
smt88 5y ago
There appears to be abundant evidence that wine-tasting is largely nonsense, including experiments done on wine judges: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-ta...
- phonypc 5y ago
  There's evidence that wine judging is less objective than most people involved in it seem to believe. I'm not sure that justifies calling it nonsense, or misrepresenting a study as showing that experienced people can't even distinguish white from red.
  - smt88 5y ago
    The link I provided does not cite that study.
    - phonypc 5y ago
      It does actually, but that wasn't really my point in referring to it. More that the GP post misrepresenting the study isn't justified by other evidence of a lack of rigour in the field.
hellbannedguy 5y ago
I have lost count of the studies that can't tell the difference between a Fine wine, vs 2 buck chuck. (To the alcoholics out there, whom have tried all the programs, etc., to no avail, but want to cut back. There's a box white wine in most large grocery stores that has 9% alcohol. Most wine is 12% up to 17% I believe. It doesn't taste great, but that's a good thing, and it's pretty hard to develop a problem with it.)

darkerside 5y ago

Why should red and white wines taste so distinguishably different anyway? Because one is red colored and one is white? So what? Seems like your contempt here falls prey to the same biases as the sommeliers. Of course, you're not supposed to be an expert. But still, seems like a hypocritical thing to make fun of someone else for.

Niksko 5y ago
Because there is a fundamental difference in how they're made: red wines spend more time in contact with grape skins, while white wines don't. Grape skins contain tannins and other compounds that end up in the wine, and humans can perceive these compounds. You might question whether there is enough difference to warrant the perceived difference in flavor, but there are definitely quantitatively measurable differences in composition of typical red and white wines that would lead you to posit that they would taste different.
- darkerside 5y ago
  I'm not saying they're literally the same. There are also invisible differences between any two wines that have MUCH MORE impact on the taste profile. Red and white can even be the same grape. Are the skins really more impactful than, for example, the type of grape, how the wine was aged, or for how long? Why is the color so important? Mostly because it's visible to us noobs.
542354234235 5y ago
>Because one is red colored and one is white? So what? So what depends on why things are different colors. For instance, red velvet cake is just vanilla cake dyed red with food coloring. In that case, there wouldn’t be a difference in taste. On the other end, vanilla bean ice cream has black specks distributed throughout from the contents of the vanilla bean itself. If you substituted black pepper, it might look the same but it would not taste the same. As Niksko explained, red and white wine are different due to differences in ingredients and different processes which impart different flavor and color.
- 5y ago