5 ms·

So as a 56yo "old school" LAMP-stack monkey, could someone please give me a quick rundown exactly what benefits would investing the mental energy (a non-trivial

by cubano 5y ago

So as a 56yo "old school" LAMP-stack monkey, could someone please give me a quick rundown exactly what benefits would investing the mental energy (a non-trivial amount) and time (less an issue) give to someone in my ancient yet comfortable canvas Cons? For sure next.js is an interesting framework and of course I use plenty of typescript in my projects to keep the UXs from feeling stale, but I have yet to see the overwhelming benefits that going all-in with something like this framework would give me overall, besides just the obvious one that I'm "keeping up with the cool kids"... One think I do really like here is the way Remix is keeping things on the backend...I'll admit coming from the 1980s I'm much more comfortable working with backend paradigms, so this particular stack has caught my attention more than others and why I am particularly interested in hearing about its direct benefits (besides the obvious ones like "its not PHP" of course)

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
colinclerk 5y ago
I think this new wave of server-enabled React is enabling codebases that are better organized than old MVC stacks. The MVC way was: 1. Look at the route 2. Recognize that this route has, e.g. A Header, A Sidebar, and Content 3. Load the data for the Header, Sidebar, and Content 4. Pass the data to the templating engine 5. Use the templating engine to render the route, which likely fans the data for the Header, Sidebar, and Content into individual template files. Remix highlights that Header, Sidebar, and Content are three separate components. Instead of loading the data all at once (#2 above) and then rendering all at once (#5 above), it allows you to load and render each component individually.
- bpicolo 5y ago
  This is what Facebook's Bigpipe was doing in 2010. https://engineering.fb.com/2010/06/04/web/bigpipe-pipelining-web-pages-for-high-performance/ https://engineering.fb.com/2010/06/04/web/bigpipe-pipelining...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tuan 5y ago
  >> load and render each component individually you can do that with Suspense. React doc calls that render-as-you-fetch pattern https://reactjs.org/docs/concurrent-mode-suspense.html#approach-3-render-as-you-fetch-using-suspense https://reactjs.org/docs/concurrent-mode-suspense.html#appro...
SavantIdiot 5y ago
Frameworks are designed for the following (this is obviously an incomplete list): 1. large teams (not just one webmaster, circa 1999) 2. tooling like syntax checking, style enforcement, minification, and transpiling 3. component-based development & reuse; forces smaller files which are easier to lint and test 4. separation of concerns. in the old days there was one Apache www folder and everyone took a big shit in it. javascript was in html files that also contained php, it was snarled mess. frameworks separate that to a large extent (one could argue angular/vue etc went backwards) 5. regression, aka CI/CD: there are actual testing flows today, unlike the 2000s 6. if you've been out for a really long time: reactivity. JavaScript allows getter/setter methods that can update the DOM when a value changes; this includes before/after and around-like methods that can integrate AJAX calls in a VARAIBLE name. e.g., you access the variable and an AJAX call fires and updates your DOM when the data returns with you doing ZERO coding. This is a big step over PHP where you sprinkle magic server commands everywhere, and big step up over Jquery, where you have to target each DOM class/ID, which is tedious. That being said I maintain a LAMP site, a pure-NodeJS site (get() verbs send back pug templates), and a NuxtJS website. I prefer developing the NuxtJS website (hot loading is sweet), but I can hack the LAMP site in a snap without touching literally everything; the NodeJS website is more aesthetically appealing in terms of architecture, but adding content to it is laborious. EDIT: I'd go even further and say there is way more of a diaspora today. In the old days you could approach any website and basically understand what was going on in the frontened. Today there are layers upon layers of compiling/transpiling/parsing etc, that creates dozens of bespoke syntaxes. It is maddening, but I chalk it up to the fact that companies hire for the "hot new thing," damn the consequences, because their PMs are youngins too. There's a enormous lack of engineering discipline everywhere you turn. You will find many, many, MANY of the tools fail to even succeed at their own how-to guides because they have no real deep thought behind them.
- couchand 5y ago
  > JavaScript allows getter/setter methods that can update the DOM when a value changes; this includes before/after and around-like methods that can integrate AJAX calls in a VARAIBLE name. e.g., you access the variable and an AJAX call fires and updates your DOM when the data returns with you doing ZERO coding. Maybe I'm old but that sounds TERRIBLE. When my code is doing something expensive like a network call, I want to know about it.
nbzso 5y ago
As a 47yo UI Designer and UX/User Centered Design Pioneer (CEO, PM, Business Owner, etc.), I have one rule of thumb towards "Cool JS/CSS/New tech": I wait for the tech to become "Unavoidable" in Implementation practices. Aside of "mental load", every new paradigm shift is measured in education/expenses/support time. So waiting for "market validation" is the only valuable option for me. This approach has saved a tons of money for my clients and thousands of hours in support/maintenance. "Keeping up with the cool kids" is not valuable business decision, you can invest in systemic design knowledge and "proven technology" optimization.
- kome 5y ago
  using PHP 5 and xhtml is also a valid strategy imho
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  Yeah, there will be dragons in this like any other framework, and I'll let other people slay them for free. There is little incentive financially or career wise to get ahead on these things - so I only do it for tech I find genuinely interesting. I think this sort of thing will be interesting to many, but not me. Seen enough view frameworks (ok this probably is something else, even working out what it is and what problem it solves is a weekends work). Thanks!
- pjmlp 5y ago
  About the same age, I just apply it to every "New tech" not only web, other than that, 100% on point.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
npsomaratna 5y ago
Check out Laravel Livewire: https://laravel-livewire.com/ https://laravel-livewire.com/ — this is based on a similar concept. (If course, you do need to be using Laravel in the first place!)
btbuildem 5y ago
Coming across "new stuff" I always ask myself: Where did the complexity go? It definitely didn't go away, so what is it that the glossy page is not showing?

by cubano 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

colinclerk 5y ago

I think this new wave of server-enabled React is enabling codebases that are better organized than old MVC stacks. The MVC way was: 1. Look at the route 2. Recognize that this route has, e.g. A Header, A Sidebar, and Content 3. Load the data for the Header, Sidebar, and Content 4. Pass the data to the templating engine 5. Use the templating engine to render the route, which likely fans the data for the Header, Sidebar, and Content into individual template files. Remix highlights that Header, Sidebar, and Content are three separate components. Instead of loading the data all at once (#2 above) and then rendering all at once (#5 above), it allows you to load and render each component individually.

bpicolo 5y ago
This is what Facebook's Bigpipe was doing in 2010. https://engineering.fb.com/2010/06/04/web/bigpipe-pipelining-web-pages-for-high-performance/ https://engineering.fb.com/2010/06/04/web/bigpipe-pipelining...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tuan 5y ago
>> load and render each component individually you can do that with Suspense. React doc calls that render-as-you-fetch pattern https://reactjs.org/docs/concurrent-mode-suspense.html#approach-3-render-as-you-fetch-using-suspense https://reactjs.org/docs/concurrent-mode-suspense.html#appro...

SavantIdiot 5y ago

Frameworks are designed for the following (this is obviously an incomplete list): 1. large teams (not just one webmaster, circa 1999) 2. tooling like syntax checking, style enforcement, minification, and transpiling 3. component-based development & reuse; forces smaller files which are easier to lint and test 4. separation of concerns. in the old days there was one Apache www folder and everyone took a big shit in it. javascript was in html files that also contained php, it was snarled mess. frameworks separate that to a large extent (one could argue angular/vue etc went backwards) 5. regression, aka CI/CD: there are actual testing flows today, unlike the 2000s 6. if you've been out for a really long time: reactivity. JavaScript allows getter/setter methods that can update the DOM when a value changes; this includes before/after and around-like methods that can integrate AJAX calls in a VARAIBLE name. e.g., you access the variable and an AJAX call fires and updates your DOM when the data returns with you doing ZERO coding. This is a big step over PHP where you sprinkle magic server commands everywhere, and big step up over Jquery, where you have to target each DOM class/ID, which is tedious. That being said I maintain a LAMP site, a pure-NodeJS site (get() verbs send back pug templates), and a NuxtJS website. I prefer developing the NuxtJS website (hot loading is sweet), but I can hack the LAMP site in a snap without touching literally everything; the NodeJS website is more aesthetically appealing in terms of architecture, but adding content to it is laborious. EDIT: I'd go even further and say there is way more of a diaspora today. In the old days you could approach any website and basically understand what was going on in the frontened. Today there are layers upon layers of compiling/transpiling/parsing etc, that creates dozens of bespoke syntaxes. It is maddening, but I chalk it up to the fact that companies hire for the "hot new thing," damn the consequences, because their PMs are youngins too. There's a enormous lack of engineering discipline everywhere you turn. You will find many, many, MANY of the tools fail to even succeed at their own how-to guides because they have no real deep thought behind them.

couchand 5y ago
> JavaScript allows getter/setter methods that can update the DOM when a value changes; this includes before/after and around-like methods that can integrate AJAX calls in a VARAIBLE name. e.g., you access the variable and an AJAX call fires and updates your DOM when the data returns with you doing ZERO coding. Maybe I'm old but that sounds TERRIBLE. When my code is doing something expensive like a network call, I want to know about it.

nbzso 5y ago

As a 47yo UI Designer and UX/User Centered Design Pioneer (CEO, PM, Business Owner, etc.), I have one rule of thumb towards "Cool JS/CSS/New tech": I wait for the tech to become "Unavoidable" in Implementation practices. Aside of "mental load", every new paradigm shift is measured in education/expenses/support time. So waiting for "market validation" is the only valuable option for me. This approach has saved a tons of money for my clients and thousands of hours in support/maintenance. "Keeping up with the cool kids" is not valuable business decision, you can invest in systemic design knowledge and "proven technology" optimization.

kome 5y ago
using PHP 5 and xhtml is also a valid strategy imho
quickthrower2 5y ago
Yeah, there will be dragons in this like any other framework, and I'll let other people slay them for free. There is little incentive financially or career wise to get ahead on these things - so I only do it for tech I find genuinely interesting. I think this sort of thing will be interesting to many, but not me. Seen enough view frameworks (ok this probably is something else, even working out what it is and what problem it solves is a weekends work). Thanks!
pjmlp 5y ago
About the same age, I just apply it to every "New tech" not only web, other than that, 100% on point.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

npsomaratna 5y ago

Check out Laravel Livewire: https://laravel-livewire.com/ https://laravel-livewire.com/ — this is based on a similar concept. (If course, you do need to be using Laravel in the first place!)

btbuildem 5y ago

Coming across "new stuff" I always ask myself: Where did the complexity go? It definitely didn't go away, so what is it that the glossy page is not showing?