10 ms·

The Weirdness of Government Variation in Covid-19 Responses

46 points by _xnmw 5y ago

gvv 5y ago
I guess the author of the article found it that Europe isn't a country. Disappointing article.
warning26 5y ago
This article was disappointing -- I was hoping it would be a detailed of comparison of different responses and their performance, but instead it basically boiled down to something like: "Different areas responded differently, which sure is interesting. The end."
Barrin92 5y ago
Main reason the author seems to be surprised appears to be that he drastically underestimates the cultural differences in Europe. Political culture and attitudes towards restrictions and liberties vary drastically even between neighbouring countries. Austria might be close to Germany in several ways but it has always been notoriously weird politically. There's also a dividing line between what's (oversimplified) been called historically 'Latin' and 'German' cultures. Greece and Italy work very differently in terms of governance than Northern and Central Europe. Other point is about the difference of covid responses compared to the lack thereof on other issues. This is pretty much a prime example of what Carl Schmitt called the State of Exception. Covid is a pretty rare occasion in modern times where all the red tape and bureaucracy gets pushed aside and states actually exercise sovereign power, and that just brings differences much more to the surface, both across the pond and here on the continent.
- wk_end 5y ago
  Can you elaborate on how Austrian politics are weird/tend to differ from Germany’s, in your view? I lived in Germany for a bit and have visited Austria, but am otherwise ignorant, so I’m not doubting you or anything - that just sounds interesting.
  - User23 5y ago
    Even within the Federal Repubic the difference between the States is huge. Bavaria is a very different place from North Rhine-Westphalia. One could argue that the Bavarians have more in common with the Austrians culturally.
    - detaro 5y ago
      And the states hold quite some authority in health matters, so this does directly impacts how they react, and coordinating things among them has cost a lot of effort and time.
      - User23 5y ago
        It wasn’t so long ago that they were more or less independent kingdoms, palatinates, principalities, free cities, and several more that don’t spring to mind. Europe is a treasure trove of cultural diversity and Germany especially so since it took so long to unite. Italy is another good example of the phenomenon.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    in particular since the 70s and the 80s and the rise of the Freedom Party centering around the fairly eccentric Jörg Haider Austria developed a very particular nationalism (partially pan-German) that is ironically more or less absent in post-war Germany. Austria much earlier than a few other European countries had a much more populist streak whereas Germany even now is fairly consensus oriented and stable. It's a sort of mix of libertarianism, nationalism, conservatism and questions of national identity that seem very at the front of Austrian politics in a way that you barely have in Germany.
- oceanghost 5y ago
  I don't know much about Europe, but I do have some friends in Italy who just seem-- comically inflamed by everything much like what goes on in the US. Is there a pattern there or do I just have crazy friends?
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    I'd say it's a pattern; people up here in the north of Europe are often also rather inflamed by what goes on in the USA. Not that I see anything peculiar in that; I am often inflamed by it, too. What feels weird to us is more how so many Americans aren't enraged by many things that happen over there.
    - oceanghost 5y ago
      I have tried for a few hours now to try to formulate a reasonable expository response to your reply, but I think its just beyond explanation... one might invoke the phrase "ineffable." As an American-- there are plenty of very real "conspiracies" (our banking system, our medical system, our economic system, Jeffery Epstein) that are completely ignored while a substantial portion of our populace tilts at (imagined) windmills. I have no explanation other than that, a significant sub-population of our people must be absolute morons.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        > As an American-- there are plenty of very real "conspiracies" (our banking system, our medical system, our economic system, Jeffery Epstein) So that's at least five, then...
chrisco255 5y ago
The thing to takeaway from COVID-19 policy responses is that there is no clear success in any strategy whatsoever. The virus has confounded and mutated and spread in the face of masking, social distancing, triple vaxxing, lockdowns, and medical apartheid. We are two years into this. It's clear that Covid is endemic and here to stay. That its rate of mutation and spread is too high to contain. Antiviral treatments and therapeutics should be given more heavy support and research. People also need to move on, and live freely, because life is too short to live in a bubble of fear and dreariness. How many high school graduations, proms, death bed visitations, dance recitals, wedding receptions, music concerts, games and sporting events have been ruined by these awful and ineffective government responses? How much life and joy has been sucked out of the world to stave off the inevitable?
- beebmam 5y ago
  Seems like China's policy and Taiwan's policy are the only nations that have clear success. And it's the zero tolerance of COVID policy. One that many of us have been calling for near 2 years now.
- TylerE 5y ago
  I think part of the problem is that things that work get discontinued... "Oh, we're 70% vaxxed and positive rate is under X%..we don't need to mask anymore.."
  - majou 5y ago
    Where I live dropped mask mandate only to bring it back in a few months with a strict vaccine mandate.
    - hagbard_c 5y ago
      ...while where I live there never was any mask mandate, nor is there a vaccination mandate. Still most people in vulnerable groups have been vaccinated and every now and then you see someone with a mask although they are the exception rather than the rule. We also currently have the lowest SARS2 infection and mortality rate in Europe with no upward trend - it is actually still going down [1]. Meanwhile in Germany questions have been asked in the Thüringer Landtag (parliament of the state Thüringen) [2] about an oddity in the relationship between excess mortality and vaccination status of states (Bundesländer) - the higher the vaccination rate, the higher the excess mortality [3,4 (both in German)]. This should of course be the other way around, it is after all against severe disease and death that the vaccines are meant to protect. [1] https://c19.se/en https://c19.se/en [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKVOqYUAHTo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKVOqYUAHTo [3] https://www.utebergner.de/der-wert-eines-menschen-haengt-nicht-von-seinem-impfstatus-ab/ https://www.utebergner.de/der-wert-eines-menschen-haengt-nic... (in German) [4] https://www.utebergner.de/cms/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/%C3%9Cbersterblichkeit-KW-36-bis-40-in-2021-003.pdf https://www.utebergner.de/cms/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/%C3... (in German)
Bayart 5y ago
Once in a while someone has the wild realization that European countries are, in fact, different countries. Despite a common background (and even that really needs to be taken with precaution, a lot of the common ground in Europe has more to do with the worldwide uniformization of material culture than anything else), we do have strong differences, especially when it comes to governance, administration and political culture. For example Britain and France have more to do with their former colonies, in terms of how they're structured, than any of their direct neighbours.
koshergweilo 5y ago
Man this guy has clearly never been to socal. Otherwise he would never do something so silly as comparing orange county to LA county. It has three times as many people and twice the population density, and the average person makes significantly less per year. Is it that surprising that a smaller, less dense, richer suburb doesn't need as many restrictions as the largest county in the country? This is all without even touching the historical political differences between the two counties. Frankly I'm amazed (and very glad, I'm visiting over the holidays) the two counties have such similar vaccination rates. Edit: Also he neglected to mention Orange County actually has a higher vaccination rate than LA County. Seems like a Federalism success story to me.
zwieback 5y ago
I was struck by another detail: even between "blue" jurisdictions, e.g. coastal US/cities and cities in Germany the details differ wildly. Natural immunity seems to count for something in Germany but not in the US and it's the opposite with PCR tests, those can get you into my US workplace, which has a vaccine mandate, but not enough to get you into some venues in Germany. I'm trying to sort all this since I'll be visiting my parents in Germany for the first time in 2 years. Also, it's politically very hard to pass vaccine mandates in "obedient" Germany but easy in "wild-west" US. This has to do with privacy laws more than medicine or science. What's common, as far as I can tell: right-wing=anti mask/vaccine and left-wing=pro mask/vaccine.
- chrismcb 5y ago
  Mandates aren't "passed" they are just declared, either as a health issue or an emergency order.
  - zwieback 5y ago
    good point - executive vs. legislative
- detaro 5y ago
  Another fun one: as far as I understand at home quick tests are not really a thing in the US, whereas here in Germany they are 1-2€, available pretty much everywhere.
  - zwieback 5y ago
    Depends, my employer (hp) bought a buttload of them and handed them out when we had local spikes. At one point I was doing them every other day, now down to once a week. They cost around $20 for a 2 pack here.
swayvil 5y ago
99% of the population would cut off their silly nose if somebody on facebook told them to. It's a historical fact. Don't expect rationality from the crowd. Kindergartners are getting rashes on their face because school forces them to wear a damn mask. We quote talking heads to justify our insanity.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  > 99% of the population would cut off their silly nose if somebody on facebook told them to. Wow. Hyperbole much? > It's a historical fact. No, it's not.

46 points by _xnmw 5y ago

gvv 5y ago

I guess the author of the article found it that Europe isn't a country. Disappointing article.

This article was disappointing -- I was hoping it would be a detailed of comparison of different responses and their performance, but instead it basically boiled down to something like: "Different areas responded differently, which sure is interesting. The end."

Barrin92 5y ago

Main reason the author seems to be surprised appears to be that he drastically underestimates the cultural differences in Europe. Political culture and attitudes towards restrictions and liberties vary drastically even between neighbouring countries. Austria might be close to Germany in several ways but it has always been notoriously weird politically. There's also a dividing line between what's (oversimplified) been called historically 'Latin' and 'German' cultures. Greece and Italy work very differently in terms of governance than Northern and Central Europe. Other point is about the difference of covid responses compared to the lack thereof on other issues. This is pretty much a prime example of what Carl Schmitt called the State of Exception. Covid is a pretty rare occasion in modern times where all the red tape and bureaucracy gets pushed aside and states actually exercise sovereign power, and that just brings differences much more to the surface, both across the pond and here on the continent.

wk_end 5y ago
Can you elaborate on how Austrian politics are weird/tend to differ from Germany’s, in your view? I lived in Germany for a bit and have visited Austria, but am otherwise ignorant, so I’m not doubting you or anything - that just sounds interesting.
- User23 5y ago
  Even within the Federal Repubic the difference between the States is huge. Bavaria is a very different place from North Rhine-Westphalia. One could argue that the Bavarians have more in common with the Austrians culturally.
  - detaro 5y ago
    And the states hold quite some authority in health matters, so this does directly impacts how they react, and coordinating things among them has cost a lot of effort and time.
    - User23 5y ago
      It wasn’t so long ago that they were more or less independent kingdoms, palatinates, principalities, free cities, and several more that don’t spring to mind. Europe is a treasure trove of cultural diversity and Germany especially so since it took so long to unite. Italy is another good example of the phenomenon.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  in particular since the 70s and the 80s and the rise of the Freedom Party centering around the fairly eccentric Jörg Haider Austria developed a very particular nationalism (partially pan-German) that is ironically more or less absent in post-war Germany. Austria much earlier than a few other European countries had a much more populist streak whereas Germany even now is fairly consensus oriented and stable. It's a sort of mix of libertarianism, nationalism, conservatism and questions of national identity that seem very at the front of Austrian politics in a way that you barely have in Germany.
oceanghost 5y ago
I don't know much about Europe, but I do have some friends in Italy who just seem-- comically inflamed by everything much like what goes on in the US. Is there a pattern there or do I just have crazy friends?
- CRConrad 5y ago
  I'd say it's a pattern; people up here in the north of Europe are often also rather inflamed by what goes on in the USA. Not that I see anything peculiar in that; I am often inflamed by it, too. What feels weird to us is more how so many Americans aren't enraged by many things that happen over there.
  - oceanghost 5y ago
    I have tried for a few hours now to try to formulate a reasonable expository response to your reply, but I think its just beyond explanation... one might invoke the phrase "ineffable." As an American-- there are plenty of very real "conspiracies" (our banking system, our medical system, our economic system, Jeffery Epstein) that are completely ignored while a substantial portion of our populace tilts at (imagined) windmills. I have no explanation other than that, a significant sub-population of our people must be absolute morons.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      > As an American-- there are plenty of very real "conspiracies" (our banking system, our medical system, our economic system, Jeffery Epstein) So that's at least five, then...

chrisco255 5y ago

The thing to takeaway from COVID-19 policy responses is that there is no clear success in any strategy whatsoever. The virus has confounded and mutated and spread in the face of masking, social distancing, triple vaxxing, lockdowns, and medical apartheid. We are two years into this. It's clear that Covid is endemic and here to stay. That its rate of mutation and spread is too high to contain. Antiviral treatments and therapeutics should be given more heavy support and research. People also need to move on, and live freely, because life is too short to live in a bubble of fear and dreariness. How many high school graduations, proms, death bed visitations, dance recitals, wedding receptions, music concerts, games and sporting events have been ruined by these awful and ineffective government responses? How much life and joy has been sucked out of the world to stave off the inevitable?

beebmam 5y ago
Seems like China's policy and Taiwan's policy are the only nations that have clear success. And it's the zero tolerance of COVID policy. One that many of us have been calling for near 2 years now.
TylerE 5y ago
I think part of the problem is that things that work get discontinued... "Oh, we're 70% vaxxed and positive rate is under X%..we don't need to mask anymore.."
- majou 5y ago
  Where I live dropped mask mandate only to bring it back in a few months with a strict vaccine mandate.
  - hagbard_c 5y ago
    ...while where I live there never was any mask mandate, nor is there a vaccination mandate. Still most people in vulnerable groups have been vaccinated and every now and then you see someone with a mask although they are the exception rather than the rule. We also currently have the lowest SARS2 infection and mortality rate in Europe with no upward trend - it is actually still going down [1]. Meanwhile in Germany questions have been asked in the Thüringer Landtag (parliament of the state Thüringen) [2] about an oddity in the relationship between excess mortality and vaccination status of states (Bundesländer) - the higher the vaccination rate, the higher the excess mortality [3,4 (both in German)]. This should of course be the other way around, it is after all against severe disease and death that the vaccines are meant to protect. [1] https://c19.se/en https://c19.se/en [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKVOqYUAHTo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKVOqYUAHTo [3] https://www.utebergner.de/der-wert-eines-menschen-haengt-nicht-von-seinem-impfstatus-ab/ https://www.utebergner.de/der-wert-eines-menschen-haengt-nic... (in German) [4] https://www.utebergner.de/cms/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/%C3%9Cbersterblichkeit-KW-36-bis-40-in-2021-003.pdf https://www.utebergner.de/cms/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/%C3... (in German)

Bayart 5y ago

Once in a while someone has the wild realization that European countries are, in fact, different countries. Despite a common background (and even that really needs to be taken with precaution, a lot of the common ground in Europe has more to do with the worldwide uniformization of material culture than anything else), we do have strong differences, especially when it comes to governance, administration and political culture. For example Britain and France have more to do with their former colonies, in terms of how they're structured, than any of their direct neighbours.

koshergweilo 5y ago

Man this guy has clearly never been to socal. Otherwise he would never do something so silly as comparing orange county to LA county. It has three times as many people and twice the population density, and the average person makes significantly less per year. Is it that surprising that a smaller, less dense, richer suburb doesn't need as many restrictions as the largest county in the country? This is all without even touching the historical political differences between the two counties. Frankly I'm amazed (and very glad, I'm visiting over the holidays) the two counties have such similar vaccination rates. Edit: Also he neglected to mention Orange County actually has a higher vaccination rate than LA County. Seems like a Federalism success story to me.

zwieback 5y ago

I was struck by another detail: even between "blue" jurisdictions, e.g. coastal US/cities and cities in Germany the details differ wildly. Natural immunity seems to count for something in Germany but not in the US and it's the opposite with PCR tests, those can get you into my US workplace, which has a vaccine mandate, but not enough to get you into some venues in Germany. I'm trying to sort all this since I'll be visiting my parents in Germany for the first time in 2 years. Also, it's politically very hard to pass vaccine mandates in "obedient" Germany but easy in "wild-west" US. This has to do with privacy laws more than medicine or science. What's common, as far as I can tell: right-wing=anti mask/vaccine and left-wing=pro mask/vaccine.

chrismcb 5y ago
Mandates aren't "passed" they are just declared, either as a health issue or an emergency order.
- zwieback 5y ago
  good point - executive vs. legislative
detaro 5y ago
Another fun one: as far as I understand at home quick tests are not really a thing in the US, whereas here in Germany they are 1-2€, available pretty much everywhere.
- zwieback 5y ago
  Depends, my employer (hp) bought a buttload of them and handed them out when we had local spikes. At one point I was doing them every other day, now down to once a week. They cost around $20 for a 2 pack here.

swayvil 5y ago

99% of the population would cut off their silly nose if somebody on facebook told them to. It's a historical fact. Don't expect rationality from the crowd. Kindergartners are getting rashes on their face because school forces them to wear a damn mask. We quote talking heads to justify our insanity.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
> 99% of the population would cut off their silly nose if somebody on facebook told them to. Wow. Hyperbole much? > It's a historical fact. No, it's not.