5 ms·

This is what post-capitalism looks like. Perhaps they should just lock up all the expensive stuff like Home Depot does.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
This is what post-order society looks like. People are doing massively parallel theft, betting that they are too many for the police to arrest. So far, it seems to be working. If it continues to work, there are only a few options: - Businesses accept this as a price of doing business. - Businesses close because they can't live with this as a price of doing business. Now, if it's high-end stores, that may not be a huge loss to society. But something similar is also happening to drugstores, and people actually need drugstores. - Businesses beef up their physical security. Maybe something like outside security cameras plus electronic locks on the doors that can only be opened by the people inside. - Businesses beef up their security by hiring guards. But there probably aren't that many people who are willing to go the rounds with intruders armed with crowbars while unarmed themselves. Sooner or later, that's going to result in looters getting shot. And when it does, that's going to result in widespread outrage, at least among some segments of society. If you (as a society) won't provide sufficient policing to protect stores, and you won't let the stores protect themselves, then you're either going to have very expensive stores, or you aren't going to have stores. And even the very expensive stores option is facing a feedback loop: They're expensive, so more people feel justified in stealing, so the store becomes even more expensive... That's not sustainable. So the end result will be no stores. That's a kind of post-capitalism, but I'm pretty sure it's not what most people have in mind by the term.
- zwieback 5y ago
  all of the above is happening in downtown Portland
- hindsightbias 5y ago
  Perhaps what’s old will be new again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers_(theater) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers_(theater)
- _l4lu 5y ago
  Sure, security is a good idea, but how far do you want to escalate it? If you visit a higher-end store or a bank in Latin America or the Caribbean you'll likely see a security guard or two with a shotgun. I'm not anti-gun, but I don't want to live in an environment where this is the norm. The ultimate root cause is extreme inequality driving some people to act out. If people's lives are generally tolerable, fewer will feel justified in stealing a luxury item. I think it's less about the handbag and more about giving a middle finger to the established order. And no, I'm not saying we should give criminals carte blanche, or that the status quo is fine. But there is certainly a correlation between inequality and crime and focusing only on security isn't the whole answer.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    I'm not sure that I want to live in an environment where, while I'm peacefully shopping in a store, a bunch of people with crowbars race in and start smashing things either.
  - aerostable_slug 5y ago
    > The ultimate root cause is extreme inequality driving some people to act out. Inequality isn't driving opportunistic looting. Inequality really doesn't drive organized retail crime rings. Those are convenient excuses for persons who have chosen not to participate in mainstream society. The number of zeros in Elon Musk's daily net worth has nothing to do with the actions of opportunistic criminals who are able and willing to rationalize their actions with no need for anyone's help ("insurance will pay"; "big corporations" "they have lots of money anyway"; "the stores overcharge"; "I have Righteous Anger"; "only violence and crime draws attention to protests"; and, of course, "I want that now").
    - nzmsv 5y ago
      I get it, I really do. This is an attack on our collective sense of security and it's close to home. The people who did this are in the wrong. But: do you generally associate a calm peaceful society with a lot of security or little? Typically it's dictatorships that have soldiers with automatic rifles patrolling the streets, or failed states that are being run by the military. Tons of security, but does it feel safe?
- byethefjgjdsn 5y ago
  [flagged]

This is what post-order society looks like. People are doing massively parallel theft, betting that they are too many for the police to arrest. So far, it seems to be working. If it continues to work, there are only a few options: - Businesses accept this as a price of doing business. - Businesses close because they can't live with this as a price of doing business. Now, if it's high-end stores, that may not be a huge loss to society. But something similar is also happening to drugstores, and people actually need drugstores. - Businesses beef up their physical security. Maybe something like outside security cameras plus electronic locks on the doors that can only be opened by the people inside. - Businesses beef up their security by hiring guards. But there probably aren't that many people who are willing to go the rounds with intruders armed with crowbars while unarmed themselves. Sooner or later, that's going to result in looters getting shot. And when it does, that's going to result in widespread outrage, at least among some segments of society. If you (as a society) won't provide sufficient policing to protect stores, and you won't let the stores protect themselves, then you're either going to have very expensive stores, or you aren't going to have stores. And even the very expensive stores option is facing a feedback loop: They're expensive, so more people feel justified in stealing, so the store becomes even more expensive... That's not sustainable. So the end result will be no stores. That's a kind of post-capitalism, but I'm pretty sure it's not what most people have in mind by the term.

zwieback 5y ago
all of the above is happening in downtown Portland
hindsightbias 5y ago
Perhaps what’s old will be new again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers_(theater) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers_(theater)
_l4lu 5y ago
Sure, security is a good idea, but how far do you want to escalate it? If you visit a higher-end store or a bank in Latin America or the Caribbean you'll likely see a security guard or two with a shotgun. I'm not anti-gun, but I don't want to live in an environment where this is the norm. The ultimate root cause is extreme inequality driving some people to act out. If people's lives are generally tolerable, fewer will feel justified in stealing a luxury item. I think it's less about the handbag and more about giving a middle finger to the established order. And no, I'm not saying we should give criminals carte blanche, or that the status quo is fine. But there is certainly a correlation between inequality and crime and focusing only on security isn't the whole answer.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  I'm not sure that I want to live in an environment where, while I'm peacefully shopping in a store, a bunch of people with crowbars race in and start smashing things either.
- aerostable_slug 5y ago
  > The ultimate root cause is extreme inequality driving some people to act out. Inequality isn't driving opportunistic looting. Inequality really doesn't drive organized retail crime rings. Those are convenient excuses for persons who have chosen not to participate in mainstream society. The number of zeros in Elon Musk's daily net worth has nothing to do with the actions of opportunistic criminals who are able and willing to rationalize their actions with no need for anyone's help ("insurance will pay"; "big corporations" "they have lots of money anyway"; "the stores overcharge"; "I have Righteous Anger"; "only violence and crime draws attention to protests"; and, of course, "I want that now").
  - nzmsv 5y ago
    I get it, I really do. This is an attack on our collective sense of security and it's close to home. The people who did this are in the wrong. But: do you generally associate a calm peaceful society with a lot of security or little? Typically it's dictatorships that have soldiers with automatic rifles patrolling the streets, or failed states that are being run by the military. Tons of security, but does it feel safe?
byethefjgjdsn 5y ago
[flagged]