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I used to write code like this for a long time but I honestly felt like I was never actually internalizing anything. So at one point I just turned autocomplete

I used to write code like this for a long time but I honestly felt like I was never actually internalizing anything. So at one point I just turned autocomplete off, stopped searching immediately and forced myself to remember and I think it's had a hugely positive impact. When I had to actively memorize I paid way more attention to what I was doing. I think the online search multitasking is honestly very bad for sustained attention and very passive. As an alternative I started to look up library code directly and just read and I feel like I learned more about how python worked in a few weeks than I did in months or so of just typing things into google.

Hextinium 5y ago
I feel like there is a inflection point of having the time to be able to study a new language vs just brute forcing your way through with SO. If you know you will be using python for long enough then it would be worth reading the docs, else just SO all the way.
marginalia_nu 5y ago
I think how you learned to code does sort of shape your coding. I'm very much from the opposite camp. I learned to code in C in vi and didn't really have anyone to ask other than the manpages and the K&R book, I'm pretty sure I didn't even use syntax highlighting. I do think this has shaped my programming even later to where I stubbornly stick to boring but stable programming languages like C, C++ and Java, and these languages I've used for in some cases almost 25 years and where I virtually never have to look anything up. It's not like I haven't dabbled in other languages and paradigms, like python and haskell and whatever; but it's not those languages I use when I need to build something. I just don't see the value in constantly learning all this flavor-of-the-month stuff. When the dust settles, most hyped upcoming programming languages become footnotes when the history of programming is written.
- dylan604 5y ago
  I learned to program in a similarish vein (different languages), but with monocolor screen and reference books. However, now when I login to a system where vi is not mapped to vim so that the syntax highlight is not brightly colored, I quickly exit, create that alias to vim, and go again. Coding without syntax highlighting is caveman style to me. It can be done, but I really don't like how it slows things down now. I do agree that quickly jumping to an online reference because you can't remember the order of the parameters for a particular method is a crutch that if you were forced to remember would remove that slow down. But at least I'm able to remember the correct method vs having to search for which method is needed and when.
  - marginalia_nu 5y ago
    Oh yeah, I wouldn't code without an IDE today. But I do think learning to code without one, without even syntax highlighting, and especially given the extremely obtuse error messages compilers gave back then has given me a pretty useful skill set that is hard to acquire with all those tools. I don't really know what the take-away is. This isn't a fast way to learn to program, or an easy way, and I'm not even sure I'd recommend anyone learn this way, but I also can't deny it's brought some very tangible benefits.
    - dylan604 5y ago
      >I don't really know what the take-away is. Everyone learns differently.
bitwize 5y ago
> So at one point I just turned autocomplete off, stopped searching immediately and forced myself to remember and I think it's had a hugely positive impact. https://youtu.be/h1t14GnnQhc?t=20m15s https://youtu.be/h1t14GnnQhc?t=20m15s INAZUMA KICK!!! n.b. I program like this too, just plain Emacs and I try to remember API and package names before consulting Dr. Google. The IDE trying too hard to help me is hugely distracting.
- MonaroVXR 5y ago
  I saw this reaction in the night and I laughed so hard about that. If you're coding in emacs, do you self refresh the pages?
cbsmith 5y ago
So there's the tool and then there's how you use the tool. As the expression about the poor craftsman goes... I am not surprised changing your approach helped you to improve your skills. But if someone were to use online search to say... find the library code, and read the manual, they'd likely get similar results to yours, right? ;-)

Hextinium 5y ago

I feel like there is a inflection point of having the time to be able to study a new language vs just brute forcing your way through with SO. If you know you will be using python for long enough then it would be worth reading the docs, else just SO all the way.

marginalia_nu 5y ago

I think how you learned to code does sort of shape your coding. I'm very much from the opposite camp. I learned to code in C in vi and didn't really have anyone to ask other than the manpages and the K&R book, I'm pretty sure I didn't even use syntax highlighting. I do think this has shaped my programming even later to where I stubbornly stick to boring but stable programming languages like C, C++ and Java, and these languages I've used for in some cases almost 25 years and where I virtually never have to look anything up. It's not like I haven't dabbled in other languages and paradigms, like python and haskell and whatever; but it's not those languages I use when I need to build something. I just don't see the value in constantly learning all this flavor-of-the-month stuff. When the dust settles, most hyped upcoming programming languages become footnotes when the history of programming is written.

dylan604 5y ago
I learned to program in a similarish vein (different languages), but with monocolor screen and reference books. However, now when I login to a system where vi is not mapped to vim so that the syntax highlight is not brightly colored, I quickly exit, create that alias to vim, and go again. Coding without syntax highlighting is caveman style to me. It can be done, but I really don't like how it slows things down now. I do agree that quickly jumping to an online reference because you can't remember the order of the parameters for a particular method is a crutch that if you were forced to remember would remove that slow down. But at least I'm able to remember the correct method vs having to search for which method is needed and when.
- marginalia_nu 5y ago
  Oh yeah, I wouldn't code without an IDE today. But I do think learning to code without one, without even syntax highlighting, and especially given the extremely obtuse error messages compilers gave back then has given me a pretty useful skill set that is hard to acquire with all those tools. I don't really know what the take-away is. This isn't a fast way to learn to program, or an easy way, and I'm not even sure I'd recommend anyone learn this way, but I also can't deny it's brought some very tangible benefits.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    >I don't really know what the take-away is. Everyone learns differently.

bitwize 5y ago

> So at one point I just turned autocomplete off, stopped searching immediately and forced myself to remember and I think it's had a hugely positive impact. https://youtu.be/h1t14GnnQhc?t=20m15s https://youtu.be/h1t14GnnQhc?t=20m15s INAZUMA KICK!!! n.b. I program like this too, just plain Emacs and I try to remember API and package names before consulting Dr. Google. The IDE trying too hard to help me is hugely distracting.

MonaroVXR 5y ago
I saw this reaction in the night and I laughed so hard about that. If you're coding in emacs, do you self refresh the pages?

cbsmith 5y ago

So there's the tool and then there's how you use the tool. As the expression about the poor craftsman goes... I am not surprised changing your approach helped you to improve your skills. But if someone were to use online search to say... find the library code, and read the manual, they'd likely get similar results to yours, right? ;-)