4 ms·

in my short experience in software (7 years), it almost feels like there is more drama when a CoC mod team is involved. without a mod team, you will still boot

in my short experience in software (7 years), it almost feels like there is more drama when a CoC mod team is involved. without a mod team, you will still boot trolls or resolve a dispute. I think it's better to have a judge who can step in and resolve a situation than proactive police when it comes to OSS moderation.

nice_byte 5y ago
in general, i believe in the effectiveness of running communities via benevolent dictatorship. a group that has good reputation among the rest of the members, gets to decide how disputes are resolved / who gets silenced, etc., without having to justify themselves against a byzantine set of rules. for many open source projects that hope to be used by the wider world, this governance model is unacceptable though.
worik 5y ago
Depends on your POV My POV is one of privilege (I hate that word and concept, but it fits here). Being part of the majority most of the ways you can slice IT - except I am older but that one was a change! In other fields I was made aware of what it is like to be part of other groups, and it can suck. I got married. My spouse took me on a tour playing "spot the detective". They got followed around shops in a way that never happens to me. When we stood together at a bar, they were served after me, every time. A lot of people here know this from personal experience, a lot of people here it is academic reality, a lot of people here simply do not understand. OK. Believe me, it is real I have been involved in groups that make efforts to embrace people from outside the main dominant (majority) slices (how ever you choose to slice it) and groups that do not. The former is much better. Rust has truly benefited from it. Those in the comfy majority, it turns out, benefit too. I do. Compare Rust and Swift (I use Swift professionally, Rust for fun) There is no comparison. Swift has so many corners that have not been rounded off. The ergonomics is mostly much worse (unwrap V ! is an exception). Memory management in Swift is almost non-existent, the threading model is appallingly bad. I could go on, but on one side is a vibrant community, on the other is a bunch of alphas, astroturf, and the weeds rolling through almost empty Apple forums. The mod teams are a very important part of making the community a good place, making the community a good place is crucial for making the technology good.
- zionic 5y ago
  > mod teams are a very important part of making the community a good place, making the community a good place is crucial for making the technology good. Moderation teams are the cultural equivalent of a code smell. The role of moderation is strictly to remove spam and move off-topic chit chat to the off topic bin. The expanded post-modern role of “moderation” is inherently toxic and degrading.
Sharlin 5y ago
I would think more likely all the drama and more is still there without a CoC or a team to enforce it, it’s just hush-hushed and allowed to fester. The world is chock full of examples of communities quietly condoning horribly toxic and outright criminal deeds and abuses, often toward less privileged people, that have continued for decades because ignoring, suppressing and silencing is easier than the alternative.
- zionic 5y ago
  Strong disagree. The CoC, by design, creates more conflict than it resolves. You have now painted a target on your project, every activist that finds your CoC in non-compliance now has: 1) a means to proposition your submission 2) a cudgel to bang you with should you reject #1 A far saner solution is to ban CoC and those who request a CoC. The CoC then becomes “don’t request a CoC”. Tolerance paradox in action.
  - Sharlin 5y ago
    Sounds like speculation. Every community needs rules, and those can be either tacit or codified. The former way is really pronlematic. Are you opposed to laws at a nation-state level as well?

nice_byte 5y ago

in general, i believe in the effectiveness of running communities via benevolent dictatorship. a group that has good reputation among the rest of the members, gets to decide how disputes are resolved / who gets silenced, etc., without having to justify themselves against a byzantine set of rules. for many open source projects that hope to be used by the wider world, this governance model is unacceptable though.

worik 5y ago

Depends on your POV My POV is one of privilege (I hate that word and concept, but it fits here). Being part of the majority most of the ways you can slice IT - except I am older but that one was a change! In other fields I was made aware of what it is like to be part of other groups, and it can suck. I got married. My spouse took me on a tour playing "spot the detective". They got followed around shops in a way that never happens to me. When we stood together at a bar, they were served after me, every time. A lot of people here know this from personal experience, a lot of people here it is academic reality, a lot of people here simply do not understand. OK. Believe me, it is real I have been involved in groups that make efforts to embrace people from outside the main dominant (majority) slices (how ever you choose to slice it) and groups that do not. The former is much better. Rust has truly benefited from it. Those in the comfy majority, it turns out, benefit too. I do. Compare Rust and Swift (I use Swift professionally, Rust for fun) There is no comparison. Swift has so many corners that have not been rounded off. The ergonomics is mostly much worse (unwrap V ! is an exception). Memory management in Swift is almost non-existent, the threading model is appallingly bad. I could go on, but on one side is a vibrant community, on the other is a bunch of alphas, astroturf, and the weeds rolling through almost empty Apple forums. The mod teams are a very important part of making the community a good place, making the community a good place is crucial for making the technology good.

zionic 5y ago
> mod teams are a very important part of making the community a good place, making the community a good place is crucial for making the technology good. Moderation teams are the cultural equivalent of a code smell. The role of moderation is strictly to remove spam and move off-topic chit chat to the off topic bin. The expanded post-modern role of “moderation” is inherently toxic and degrading.

Sharlin 5y ago

I would think more likely all the drama and more is still there without a CoC or a team to enforce it, it’s just hush-hushed and allowed to fester. The world is chock full of examples of communities quietly condoning horribly toxic and outright criminal deeds and abuses, often toward less privileged people, that have continued for decades because ignoring, suppressing and silencing is easier than the alternative.

zionic 5y ago
Strong disagree. The CoC, by design, creates more conflict than it resolves. You have now painted a target on your project, every activist that finds your CoC in non-compliance now has: 1) a means to proposition your submission 2) a cudgel to bang you with should you reject #1 A far saner solution is to ban CoC and those who request a CoC. The CoC then becomes “don’t request a CoC”. Tolerance paradox in action.
- Sharlin 5y ago
  Sounds like speculation. Every community needs rules, and those can be either tacit or codified. The former way is really pronlematic. Are you opposed to laws at a nation-state level as well?