4 ms·

I feel like there is always drama or issues surrounding the governance of Rust. It has definitely made me wary to adopt it as a long-term language. Maybe I have

I feel like there is always drama or issues surrounding the governance of Rust. It has definitely made me wary to adopt it as a long-term language. Maybe I have recency bias or something.

native_samples 5y ago
Yeah I have the same impression. Other languages don't seem to have the same drama issues. Rust came out of Mozilla, which is super steeped in SF social justice culture (see the antics of their CEO). It seems like that culture was carried into Rust.
- samhw 5y ago
  > Mozilla, which is super steeped in SF social justice culture (see the antics of their CEO) Who do you mean? The only Mozilla CEO I can remember being involved in any controversy was Brendan Eich, and that controversy was over his funding a campaign against gay marriage. I can hardly imagine calling that 'social justice culture'. (I'm hoping this comment doesn't summon him, like the last time I mentioned him on here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28789197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28789197)
  - amadeuspagel 5y ago
    > I'm hoping this comment doesn't summon him This is extremely odious. HN is a public forum and everyone has the right to reply to your comments, especially if you mention them.
    - samhw 5y ago
      Fair enough, I didn't mean to be too nasty. He has a right to his opinions, even if I consider them by turns a menace to society (in the vax case) and not terribly enlightened (in the gay marriage case, considering I'm gay myself). And I obviously respect the guy tremendously for his life's work and contributions to the world, which are far more than my own. I was just looking at it through a slightly different frame since he's a (relatively) public figure. It's one thing to tag your Facebook acquaintance in a post and have them respond, it's another to make an offhand, slightly pejorative reference to Beyoncé and then see that Beyoncé herself sent you an angry reply. It's certainly his right, but it's a bit unexpected, and I don't think 'summon' was a particularly bad word for it. But I suppose this is a tech forum, and Eich is not Beyoncé, so it's a bit hazy.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    Mitchell Baker has repeatedly embarrassed Mozilla and failed in almost every way a CEO can fail. She is very obviously uninterested in Firefox and sees it just as a way to further her own influence amongst the Washington set she wishes she was really a part of. Mozilla not only has a "social justice" culture but openly talks about it all the time: https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/leadership/mozilla-racial-justice-commitments-one-year-in/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/leadership/mozilla-racia... "We granted 33% of Mozilla Foundation funds to black-led tech and social justice initiatives. Unfortunately, we fell short of our 40% target." The Mozilla Foundation is meant to be funding Firefox. That is its purpose. Instead it is using money raised for that purpose to perpetuate SJW culture and overt racism against white people. The type of insidious and dishonourable mind games the Rust moderation team are playing here is exactly the sort of thing I've come to expect from Mozilla-associated projects. The apologetics for it in this thread are just wrong. My weapon of choice is Kotlin, made by Russians. Guess what: there's no moderation team, the community is fine and in the 10 years the project has existed I recall exactly zero community related dramas. None. Zero. Nada. This sort of thing isn't normal for programming languages and people trying to claim it is are wrong: it's normal for languages controlled by a very specific kind of person in a very specific region and subculture of America. In contrast, Brendan Eich kept his politics private and actually cared about Firefox as a product and technology.
    - samhw 5y ago
      Ah, I'm sorry, I hadn't heard of this. I don't necessarily agree with your political opinions, but I agree that it feels inappropriate to spend Mozilla Foundation funds (which I gather are 98% donated money) on anything other than the Mozilla projects which people obviously expect their money to go to.
oscargrouch 5y ago
I'm not sure what the real problem is, but we live in a economical system that have a tendency to hijack governance of things that are important to 'them' (whoever the contextual them are) and re-purpose it's goals and direction working as a effective power-grab strategy. You can see this happening with browsers for instance, where the companies now are the ones who define the standards with things that are important to them, like DRM or showing ads, embellishing the pill with things nerds and hackers also like, where once this governance where in the hands of Tim-Berners-Lee et al. And that's because we are talking about technologies that born more free of corporation oversight, which is the minority.. (Think Java first with Sun and now with Oracle for instance) This Rust thing is just because powerful corporations are adopting it, and defining board members, so they can define more the direction of the platform and the technology. For those corporations corrupt board members that know who owns them and what interests they should defend are more important than the personal character of that board member.. It's always like this and it will always be like this. Capitalism is a amoral system and it will turn everything it touch into its own image.. Until we don't stop and fix the root cause of the system that is corrupting everything that we value its like thinking you can stop a ocean wave by resisting it while on front of it. Note: I'm not advocating to just destroying capitalism as a solution, but to acknowledge that this is actually systemic and happen all over and instead to try to fix the specific problem caused by it, we should get back some steps and try to fix the problem, which is systemic, for everything while preventing it from happening all over again in the future.
- native_samples 5y ago
  I disagree, it's the opposite - capitalism is the fix and the lack of it is the cause. The problem is the way Rust is run and the sort of people who were invited into it in the early days. Consider Kotlin. It originates from one large company - JetBrains have over 1000 employees and the Kotlin team alone has over 100 people on it - and has been adopted by another much larger company (Google) as an official language. There are no dramas. Why, because the Russians are mission focused and don't feel any need to constantly virtue signal. Consider Swift. It originates from a large company. I don't remember reading about any political dramas in the Swift world. That's because Apple are mission focused. Now look at Node or Rust. Both have attempted to build some sort of non-corporate governance system, they're based out of the Bay Area, and all of them seem to be absolutely beset by internal conflicts and strife.
Angius 5y ago
This person being a prominent part of the Rust community definitely does not make me want to engage with it and does make me wary of the stability of the language as well: https://archive.fo/f10KK https://archive.fo/f10KK
- dbt00 5y ago
  She's not?
  - Angius 5y ago
    You're right, seems I was misinformed and didn't do as much reading as I had to. Edited my comment to stop the misinformation from propagating.
    - vegai_ 5y ago
      What misinformation? https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    I don't know what was originally written, but here is from Ashley Williams (@ag_dubs) Twitter bio: > a mess like this is easily five to ten years ahead of its time. @rustlang core team. slinging open source strategy at @pubstruct . she/they
  - junon 5y ago
    She definitely is part of Rust Core. Check her github profile bio.

I feel like there is always drama or issues surrounding the governance of Rust. It has definitely made me wary to adopt it as a long-term language. Maybe I have recency bias or something.

native_samples 5y ago

Yeah I have the same impression. Other languages don't seem to have the same drama issues. Rust came out of Mozilla, which is super steeped in SF social justice culture (see the antics of their CEO). It seems like that culture was carried into Rust.

samhw 5y ago
> Mozilla, which is super steeped in SF social justice culture (see the antics of their CEO) Who do you mean? The only Mozilla CEO I can remember being involved in any controversy was Brendan Eich, and that controversy was over his funding a campaign against gay marriage. I can hardly imagine calling that 'social justice culture'. (I'm hoping this comment doesn't summon him, like the last time I mentioned him on here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28789197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28789197)
- amadeuspagel 5y ago
  > I'm hoping this comment doesn't summon him This is extremely odious. HN is a public forum and everyone has the right to reply to your comments, especially if you mention them.
  - samhw 5y ago
    Fair enough, I didn't mean to be too nasty. He has a right to his opinions, even if I consider them by turns a menace to society (in the vax case) and not terribly enlightened (in the gay marriage case, considering I'm gay myself). And I obviously respect the guy tremendously for his life's work and contributions to the world, which are far more than my own. I was just looking at it through a slightly different frame since he's a (relatively) public figure. It's one thing to tag your Facebook acquaintance in a post and have them respond, it's another to make an offhand, slightly pejorative reference to Beyoncé and then see that Beyoncé herself sent you an angry reply. It's certainly his right, but it's a bit unexpected, and I don't think 'summon' was a particularly bad word for it. But I suppose this is a tech forum, and Eich is not Beyoncé, so it's a bit hazy.
- native_samples 5y ago
  Mitchell Baker has repeatedly embarrassed Mozilla and failed in almost every way a CEO can fail. She is very obviously uninterested in Firefox and sees it just as a way to further her own influence amongst the Washington set she wishes she was really a part of. Mozilla not only has a "social justice" culture but openly talks about it all the time: https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/leadership/mozilla-racial-justice-commitments-one-year-in/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/leadership/mozilla-racia... "We granted 33% of Mozilla Foundation funds to black-led tech and social justice initiatives. Unfortunately, we fell short of our 40% target." The Mozilla Foundation is meant to be funding Firefox. That is its purpose. Instead it is using money raised for that purpose to perpetuate SJW culture and overt racism against white people. The type of insidious and dishonourable mind games the Rust moderation team are playing here is exactly the sort of thing I've come to expect from Mozilla-associated projects. The apologetics for it in this thread are just wrong. My weapon of choice is Kotlin, made by Russians. Guess what: there's no moderation team, the community is fine and in the 10 years the project has existed I recall exactly zero community related dramas. None. Zero. Nada. This sort of thing isn't normal for programming languages and people trying to claim it is are wrong: it's normal for languages controlled by a very specific kind of person in a very specific region and subculture of America. In contrast, Brendan Eich kept his politics private and actually cared about Firefox as a product and technology.
  - samhw 5y ago
    Ah, I'm sorry, I hadn't heard of this. I don't necessarily agree with your political opinions, but I agree that it feels inappropriate to spend Mozilla Foundation funds (which I gather are 98% donated money) on anything other than the Mozilla projects which people obviously expect their money to go to.

oscargrouch 5y ago

I'm not sure what the real problem is, but we live in a economical system that have a tendency to hijack governance of things that are important to 'them' (whoever the contextual them are) and re-purpose it's goals and direction working as a effective power-grab strategy. You can see this happening with browsers for instance, where the companies now are the ones who define the standards with things that are important to them, like DRM or showing ads, embellishing the pill with things nerds and hackers also like, where once this governance where in the hands of Tim-Berners-Lee et al. And that's because we are talking about technologies that born more free of corporation oversight, which is the minority.. (Think Java first with Sun and now with Oracle for instance) This Rust thing is just because powerful corporations are adopting it, and defining board members, so they can define more the direction of the platform and the technology. For those corporations corrupt board members that know who owns them and what interests they should defend are more important than the personal character of that board member.. It's always like this and it will always be like this. Capitalism is a amoral system and it will turn everything it touch into its own image.. Until we don't stop and fix the root cause of the system that is corrupting everything that we value its like thinking you can stop a ocean wave by resisting it while on front of it. Note: I'm not advocating to just destroying capitalism as a solution, but to acknowledge that this is actually systemic and happen all over and instead to try to fix the specific problem caused by it, we should get back some steps and try to fix the problem, which is systemic, for everything while preventing it from happening all over again in the future.

native_samples 5y ago
I disagree, it's the opposite - capitalism is the fix and the lack of it is the cause. The problem is the way Rust is run and the sort of people who were invited into it in the early days. Consider Kotlin. It originates from one large company - JetBrains have over 1000 employees and the Kotlin team alone has over 100 people on it - and has been adopted by another much larger company (Google) as an official language. There are no dramas. Why, because the Russians are mission focused and don't feel any need to constantly virtue signal. Consider Swift. It originates from a large company. I don't remember reading about any political dramas in the Swift world. That's because Apple are mission focused. Now look at Node or Rust. Both have attempted to build some sort of non-corporate governance system, they're based out of the Bay Area, and all of them seem to be absolutely beset by internal conflicts and strife.

Angius 5y ago

This person being a prominent part of the Rust community definitely does not make me want to engage with it and does make me wary of the stability of the language as well: https://archive.fo/f10KK https://archive.fo/f10KK

dbt00 5y ago
She's not?
- Angius 5y ago
  You're right, seems I was misinformed and didn't do as much reading as I had to. Edited my comment to stop the misinformation from propagating.
  - vegai_ 5y ago
    What misinformation? https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core
- skinkestek 5y ago
  I don't know what was originally written, but here is from Ashley Williams (@ag_dubs) Twitter bio: > a mess like this is easily five to ten years ahead of its time. @rustlang core team. slinging open source strategy at @pubstruct . she/they
- junon 5y ago
  She definitely is part of Rust Core. Check her github profile bio.