8 ms·

This is a real shame. From the early days of Rust (pre-2018?) I built up this mental picture of it having a considerably better run and governed community, with

by porker 5y ago

This is a real shame. From the early days of Rust (pre-2018?) I built up this mental picture of it having a considerably better run and governed community, with people putting time into thinking about how a community should work rather than it being something that's ignored because "we're here to write code and managing a product is a waste of time". I lost touch (the last video I watched which might be the one that give me the feels for it was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9OFQm8Qf1I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9OFQm8Qf1I, I do recall Ashley Williams & her ideas were a big part of why the community looked so good from outside; contrasted with the "do-ocracy" one I'm in) so I don't know what happened - but it's sad it's become like other projects now.

unethical_ban 5y ago
There is no substantiations of the claims of bad process by the mod team. There is nothing to be sad about except that the mod team has succeeded in creating noise with no signal.
wyager 5y ago
> with people putting time into thinking about how a community should work The sort of people who try to intentionally "plan" (I.e. socially engineer) community dynamics do not have a great historical record of actually creating good communities. History is littered with failed inorganic communities - from cults and communes to web forums with overzealous mods. Not saying that's necessarily what happened here, just that people putting a lot of thought into how to control/manage a community might be more of a negative sign than a positive one.
- adrianmsmith 5y ago
  > people putting a lot of thought into how to control/manage a community might be more of a negative sign than a positive one. A counterexample is Hacker News itself. We all like Hacker News (presumably, otherwise we wouldn't be here) and it wouldn't be what it is without the intentions of the original creator and the current moderation team.
  - staticassertion 5y ago
    > We all like Hacker News That can't be true, right? Everyone shits so hard on HN all the time. Personally I only post here because it's "the place" for people in my field, but HN has given me a more negative view of my field than positive.
    - robocat 5y ago
      > Everyone shits so hard on HN all the time. Do they? Or is it just some minority of shit stirrers? Or is it that HN is more likely to have people that can healthily laugh at themselves - a la Monty Python? I mean you can love HN and n-gate.com at the same time right? Back on topic: The very public “we quit” message seems like a very clear message to try and effect change for a cause they deeply care about. I presume the mod team had multiple other options on how to deal with the core issue. For example, they could have internally suggested a quiet rollover to a new mod team over a few months. Say modelled on how CEO leadership is changed, avoiding public drama, when a CEO is rolled by their board. Deciding on a very public option just causes all the drama to play out with every Internet and Hackernews (including me) adding their own spit into the mix. Edit: added colour.
      - staticassertion 5y ago
        Yeah, they definitely do, or at least virtually everyone I know feels that HN is a place mostly to go to laugh at the terrible opinions or, much less frequently, a good comment.
- jmull 5y ago
  History is also littered with failed organically formed communities, right?
- hitekker 5y ago
  I think the phenomena you're getting at is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectualization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectualization and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology). The first is thinking to prevent feeling, and the second is thinking to soften the feeling. Both kinds of thinking are natural. Defense mechanisms are always present in the process of making up our minds. But if defense mechanisms are allowed to dominate our thought process-- to kill feelings before they can provoke new thoughts-- the result will be indecisive, ambiguous writing that implicitly dumps the burden of resolving the anxiety, resentments and other dark feelings, onto the author's audience. An elite who publishes their overthinking signals their inability to resolve their feelings or the feelings of the people they have power over.
mlindner 5y ago
Ashley Williams is maybe one of the causes of this as she's on the core team and has said horrible CoC violating things in the past (but it was for a different CoC).
- andrelaszlo 5y ago
  I know very little about the Rust community or who Ashley Williams is, but since what you're suggesting sounds pretty serious - perhaps you could be more specific? > Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
  - mlindner 5y ago
    https://archive.fo/f10KK https://archive.fo/f10KK There's some quotes.
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    You can use the search field on the bottom of the page here on HN. Seems like she's pretty well known for saying things that others wouldn't get away with, and there is lots of evidence for it.
swebs 5y ago
This person? https://archive.fo/f10KK https://archive.fo/f10KK
- kbenson 5y ago
  Ew. At the beginning I was expecting it to be somewhat interpretive, but some of those statements are indefensible to me, and there's quite a lot. Some might attempt to explain it away as Twitter's model and ecosystem encouraging ill considered statements, but the adult response to that is to take more care in what you say or stop using the medium that encourages you to say horrible things you regret. Edit: I will acknowledge the data I was looking at is a few years old, and I don't know if the person in question has since recanted on those views. I believe people change and should be given the chance to leave their past misdeeds behind, and I have no knowledge one way or the other if that happened here, and that would be important to know to have an informed opinion.
- ramchip 5y ago
  This website always return a "could not reach server" error for me (in Japan). Is there another source?
  - 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
    http://web.archive.org/web/20170829180041/https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6whs2e/multiple_coc_violations_by_nodejs_board_member/ http://web.archive.org/web/20170829180041/https://www.reddit...
    - ramchip 5y ago
      Thanks!
  - unethical_ban 5y ago
    Cloudflare seems only to be giving the IPV6 address for archive.fo - try using quad9 or something else. Or hop on mobile.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

by porker 5y ago

unethical_ban 5y ago

There is no substantiations of the claims of bad process by the mod team. There is nothing to be sad about except that the mod team has succeeded in creating noise with no signal.

wyager 5y ago

> with people putting time into thinking about how a community should work The sort of people who try to intentionally "plan" (I.e. socially engineer) community dynamics do not have a great historical record of actually creating good communities. History is littered with failed inorganic communities - from cults and communes to web forums with overzealous mods. Not saying that's necessarily what happened here, just that people putting a lot of thought into how to control/manage a community might be more of a negative sign than a positive one.

adrianmsmith 5y ago
> people putting a lot of thought into how to control/manage a community might be more of a negative sign than a positive one. A counterexample is Hacker News itself. We all like Hacker News (presumably, otherwise we wouldn't be here) and it wouldn't be what it is without the intentions of the original creator and the current moderation team.
- staticassertion 5y ago
  > We all like Hacker News That can't be true, right? Everyone shits so hard on HN all the time. Personally I only post here because it's "the place" for people in my field, but HN has given me a more negative view of my field than positive.
  - robocat 5y ago
    > Everyone shits so hard on HN all the time. Do they? Or is it just some minority of shit stirrers? Or is it that HN is more likely to have people that can healthily laugh at themselves - a la Monty Python? I mean you can love HN and n-gate.com at the same time right? Back on topic: The very public “we quit” message seems like a very clear message to try and effect change for a cause they deeply care about. I presume the mod team had multiple other options on how to deal with the core issue. For example, they could have internally suggested a quiet rollover to a new mod team over a few months. Say modelled on how CEO leadership is changed, avoiding public drama, when a CEO is rolled by their board. Deciding on a very public option just causes all the drama to play out with every Internet and Hackernews (including me) adding their own spit into the mix. Edit: added colour.
    - staticassertion 5y ago
      Yeah, they definitely do, or at least virtually everyone I know feels that HN is a place mostly to go to laugh at the terrible opinions or, much less frequently, a good comment.
jmull 5y ago
History is also littered with failed organically formed communities, right?
hitekker 5y ago
I think the phenomena you're getting at is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectualization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectualization and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology). The first is thinking to prevent feeling, and the second is thinking to soften the feeling. Both kinds of thinking are natural. Defense mechanisms are always present in the process of making up our minds. But if defense mechanisms are allowed to dominate our thought process-- to kill feelings before they can provoke new thoughts-- the result will be indecisive, ambiguous writing that implicitly dumps the burden of resolving the anxiety, resentments and other dark feelings, onto the author's audience. An elite who publishes their overthinking signals their inability to resolve their feelings or the feelings of the people they have power over.

mlindner 5y ago

Ashley Williams is maybe one of the causes of this as she's on the core team and has said horrible CoC violating things in the past (but it was for a different CoC).

andrelaszlo 5y ago
I know very little about the Rust community or who Ashley Williams is, but since what you're suggesting sounds pretty serious - perhaps you could be more specific? > Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
- mlindner 5y ago
  https://archive.fo/f10KK https://archive.fo/f10KK There's some quotes.
- skinkestek 5y ago
  You can use the search field on the bottom of the page here on HN. Seems like she's pretty well known for saying things that others wouldn't get away with, and there is lots of evidence for it.

swebs 5y ago

This person? https://archive.fo/f10KK https://archive.fo/f10KK

kbenson 5y ago
Ew. At the beginning I was expecting it to be somewhat interpretive, but some of those statements are indefensible to me, and there's quite a lot. Some might attempt to explain it away as Twitter's model and ecosystem encouraging ill considered statements, but the adult response to that is to take more care in what you say or stop using the medium that encourages you to say horrible things you regret. Edit: I will acknowledge the data I was looking at is a few years old, and I don't know if the person in question has since recanted on those views. I believe people change and should be given the chance to leave their past misdeeds behind, and I have no knowledge one way or the other if that happened here, and that would be important to know to have an informed opinion.
ramchip 5y ago
This website always return a "could not reach server" error for me (in Japan). Is there another source?
- 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
  http://web.archive.org/web/20170829180041/https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6whs2e/multiple_coc_violations_by_nodejs_board_member/ http://web.archive.org/web/20170829180041/https://www.reddit...
  - ramchip 5y ago
    Thanks!
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  Cloudflare seems only to be giving the IPV6 address for archive.fo - try using quad9 or something else. Or hop on mobile.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]