4 ms·

Meanwhile people have waited years to get their Librem 5 [1] and are still waiting while being denied a refund after the company retroactively changed their ref

Meanwhile people have waited years to get their Librem 5 [1] and are still waiting while being denied a refund after the company retroactively changed their refund policy [2]. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/qsaap3/purism_is_a_customer_nightmare/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/qsaap3/purism_is_a_... [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/htqz2q/purism_wont_refund_me/fyisrn6/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/htqz2q/purism_wont_...

MerelyMortal 5y ago
But they are getting them. I just got mine last month. It was almost a 4 year wait (!), but it is worth it. I hope the company catches up while they continue to make the Linux computing world better. Being aware of their faults is important, but trying to drag them through the mud does a disservice to everyone.
- fsflover 5y ago
  > It was almost a 5 year wait (!) The phone was crowdfunded in September/October 2017, so it's 4 years.
  - MerelyMortal 5y ago
    Thank you for correction, I updated. I just know it was a long time, but I have patience and willingness to support the project.
- user764743 5y ago
  I've followed the company for years and sometimes observing a company's behavior with costumers will tell you a lot more about them than pretty blog posts. I mean, let's not forget how they lied about the phone being able to make calls for months while it couldn't. All I'm saying is I invite others do dig deeper into the company, I don't think they are as transparent as they claim.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    I also followed the company for years. They are much more transparent than any other company, although still not 100% transparent. All software development proceeds in the open. All code is free and upstreamed. Developers and employees reply to questions on the public forum. They're having a hard time with the funds now, so they probably have to delay refunds in order not to go bankrupt. Recently they got some inestments, so it should get better: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27949435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27949435.
    - kbenson 5y ago
      > They're having a hard time with the funds now, so they probably have to delay refunds in order not to go bankrupt. That right there is a red flag. Sometimes companies don't make it. I've never heard of a story where a company put themselves above their duty to their customers in a way such as that which didn't lead to massive problems down the road. I sincerely hope your interpretation is incorrect.
      - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
        Companies have to develop a product and then recoup the R&D from sales. If it costs $X to do the R&D and your margins are $M, you recover them after N = $X/$M sales. But then you need $X before you can make even the first sale. One way to do that is by taking pre-orders. Then you have money for the R&D before you have a product to ship. The problem comes if the product is late to market and then the people with pre-orders are unhappy. To give them a refund you have to have sold N products -- not including the one they're canceling -- or else you don't have the money because you already spent it on R&D. As long as you eventually sell N products, you can eventually give the refund, but you might not be able to do it yet. And, of course, if you never sell N products, you're in trouble.
        kbenson 5y ago
        I understand this, and I understand the reasoning. I've just never seen it turn out well. That can definitely be a sort of survivorship bias, where I haven't heard of most the companies that did it and succeeded and that didn't have later problems where it came to light. I just think that once you've accepted money for a good or service and haven't delivered that good or service, and the person wants their money back, you should be giving that money back to the degree you're capable. That it's inconvenient and may actually lead to the dissolution of your company or result in people not getting all their money back isn't really relevant. Make a case to the people and see if they are willing to accept it or alternatives (such as waiting a bit for more of their return), but don't make decisions on their behalf when your duty to return their money is clear.
- eptcyka 5y ago
  I've paid for mine, still haven't received it.
- justin66 5y ago
  > It was almost a 4 year wait (!), but it is worth it. Linux is only free if your time is worthless
caboteria 5y ago
4 years and counting for me, and my estimated shipping date (i.e., no sooner than date) is "1st Quarter 2022". One note: according to the email they sent to crowdfunders in September, they've changed their policy back to what it was originally and will now issue refunds. > If you would like us to go ahead with refund, we can now allocate your parts to another order and refund your Librem 5 product in accordance with the policy.
capdeck 5y ago
Got mine two months ago - original backer. Last year Purism offered backers to choose the batch - I replied - put me in the latest one possible, because I wanted most up-to-date hardware. I could have gotten my device in May if I would have chosen an earlier batch. Also moved twice in last 4 years and Purism accidentally sent it out to old address. When I noticed that and asked for help - they stopped the package and re-sent me a new one to the new address. Very happy with the device. Very happy with service and support. Freedom is well worth waiting for.
- martin8412 5y ago
  They may have sold it as if you had a choice of which batch to get. You did not. Evergreen is the only batch sent to customers
notdarkyet 5y ago
Their website clearly states that the Librem 5 USA ships in 90 days when ordered: "Now Shipping! Place your order now, get in approximately 90 days!". I had ordered mine in November of 2020. One year later and still no device delivered. This either seems like a lie or they are having issues managing a proper queue.

MerelyMortal 5y ago

But they are getting them. I just got mine last month. It was almost a 4 year wait (!), but it is worth it. I hope the company catches up while they continue to make the Linux computing world better. Being aware of their faults is important, but trying to drag them through the mud does a disservice to everyone.

fsflover 5y ago
> It was almost a 5 year wait (!) The phone was crowdfunded in September/October 2017, so it's 4 years.
- MerelyMortal 5y ago
  Thank you for correction, I updated. I just know it was a long time, but I have patience and willingness to support the project.
user764743 5y ago
I've followed the company for years and sometimes observing a company's behavior with costumers will tell you a lot more about them than pretty blog posts. I mean, let's not forget how they lied about the phone being able to make calls for months while it couldn't. All I'm saying is I invite others do dig deeper into the company, I don't think they are as transparent as they claim.
- fsflover 5y ago
  I also followed the company for years. They are much more transparent than any other company, although still not 100% transparent. All software development proceeds in the open. All code is free and upstreamed. Developers and employees reply to questions on the public forum. They're having a hard time with the funds now, so they probably have to delay refunds in order not to go bankrupt. Recently they got some inestments, so it should get better: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27949435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27949435.
  - kbenson 5y ago
    > They're having a hard time with the funds now, so they probably have to delay refunds in order not to go bankrupt. That right there is a red flag. Sometimes companies don't make it. I've never heard of a story where a company put themselves above their duty to their customers in a way such as that which didn't lead to massive problems down the road. I sincerely hope your interpretation is incorrect.
    - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
      Companies have to develop a product and then recoup the R&D from sales. If it costs $X to do the R&D and your margins are $M, you recover them after N = $X/$M sales. But then you need $X before you can make even the first sale. One way to do that is by taking pre-orders. Then you have money for the R&D before you have a product to ship. The problem comes if the product is late to market and then the people with pre-orders are unhappy. To give them a refund you have to have sold N products -- not including the one they're canceling -- or else you don't have the money because you already spent it on R&D. As long as you eventually sell N products, you can eventually give the refund, but you might not be able to do it yet. And, of course, if you never sell N products, you're in trouble.
      - kbenson 5y ago
        I understand this, and I understand the reasoning. I've just never seen it turn out well. That can definitely be a sort of survivorship bias, where I haven't heard of most the companies that did it and succeeded and that didn't have later problems where it came to light. I just think that once you've accepted money for a good or service and haven't delivered that good or service, and the person wants their money back, you should be giving that money back to the degree you're capable. That it's inconvenient and may actually lead to the dissolution of your company or result in people not getting all their money back isn't really relevant. Make a case to the people and see if they are willing to accept it or alternatives (such as waiting a bit for more of their return), but don't make decisions on their behalf when your duty to return their money is clear.
eptcyka 5y ago
I've paid for mine, still haven't received it.
justin66 5y ago
> It was almost a 4 year wait (!), but it is worth it. Linux is only free if your time is worthless

caboteria 5y ago

4 years and counting for me, and my estimated shipping date (i.e., no sooner than date) is "1st Quarter 2022". One note: according to the email they sent to crowdfunders in September, they've changed their policy back to what it was originally and will now issue refunds. > If you would like us to go ahead with refund, we can now allocate your parts to another order and refund your Librem 5 product in accordance with the policy.

capdeck 5y ago

Got mine two months ago - original backer. Last year Purism offered backers to choose the batch - I replied - put me in the latest one possible, because I wanted most up-to-date hardware. I could have gotten my device in May if I would have chosen an earlier batch. Also moved twice in last 4 years and Purism accidentally sent it out to old address. When I noticed that and asked for help - they stopped the package and re-sent me a new one to the new address. Very happy with the device. Very happy with service and support. Freedom is well worth waiting for.

martin8412 5y ago
They may have sold it as if you had a choice of which batch to get. You did not. Evergreen is the only batch sent to customers

notdarkyet 5y ago

Their website clearly states that the Librem 5 USA ships in 90 days when ordered: "Now Shipping! Place your order now, get in approximately 90 days!". I had ordered mine in November of 2020. One year later and still no device delivered. This either seems like a lie or they are having issues managing a proper queue.