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I don't believe proper free software projects require significant moderation of behavior between individuals. If someone says something that rises to the level
by dolni 5y ago
I don't believe proper free software projects require significant moderation of behavior between individuals.
If someone says something that rises to the level of a crime, report it to your local authorities.
Otherwise, if a person is generally toxic enough, they will be worked around.
Note that expelling a person from a project for being a jerk in one or more instances may do more harm than good. What is the value of their technical contributions? Just how much of a jerk were they?
Unfortunately, some snowflakes like to believe that everyone contributes equally. That is simply not the case. And, in fact, some people contribute a _negative_ amount overall. Which is to say, the project is better off without their participation.
Linux has changed the world -- in a very substantial way and much for the better -- even though Linus flew off the handle at people for years. That doesn't mean he is completely beyond criticism, but it does indicate to me that we need to put a significant check in place against these "feelings committees." Their sensibilities are becoming ever more delicate.
You can't have a complex technical project that is successful without some minimum level of competency. For better or worse, competency often makes people a little rougher around the edges.
Choose your tradeoff carefully.
edit: Adding an addendum here because of a lot of people seem quite triggered by the use of the word toxic and frankly, I don't have time to reply to all of you.
I used the word toxic in this post precisely once, to say that people who are toxic enough will be worked around.
Toxicity is not a yes/no question. It's a matter of degree and context. So is technical contribution.
Everyone is capable of saying things they will regret later. Some people are capable of saying things that everyone else will regret, frequently.
With regards to "competency" and "rough around the edges" -- note I used the phrase "rough around the edges" and NOT toxic. Many of you seem to be making that substitution.
Have the lot of you never worked with someone who knows their shit, is opinionated, and isn't afraid to let you know it? They're often intimidating, even if they don't mean to be. Submitting a PR for review to them can be nervewracking even if they are entirely nice about it. Sometimes a fair critique will cut a little deeper because the code is your baby, and they didn't sugarcoat it enough for your liking. And, once in a while, they're willing to get in a heated debate because they feel strongly about something.
The very nature of being critical (which is required for quality code) is enough to provoke some unwanted emotions in other people. Even if those negative emotions aren't intended. And sometimes, getting into a heated argument about something is justified if it saves a lot of pain later.
Somehow, there is a lot of triggering going on here, and not a lot of acknowledgement of nuance.
- bachmeier 5y ago> if a person is generally toxic enough, they will be worked around Yes, they will. For 25 or so years, the workaround has been others leaving and the project/site dies. There's nothing original about your argument, and it's been proven to be a destructive strategy. (Ironically, you are posting your comment on HN, which is heavily moderated.)
- remus 5y ago> Otherwise, if a person is generally toxic enough, they will be worked around. While this is generally true the workarounds can and do take time, and while all this is happening there's a lot of space for a person to do significant damage to the project in the meantime.
- dolni 5y ago> the workarounds can and do take time That's a feature, not a bug. Most big decisions can and should take time. Usually because it's not a simple matter of "this guy is a massive dick to everyone and contributes hardly anything." More often it's "this guy carries this project, and he is an asshole when people show up and run their mouth because they think they're smarter than they are." Which is to say - it's a shade of gray, not black or white. In the truly dire situations, movements happen quickly. See the recent collapse of FreeNode IRC.
- Latty 5y agoIs it coincidence that it is so common toxic people end up being the ones "carrying the project", or is it that because they are toxic, they push away other contributors and create a fragile project with a bus factor of one? Seems to me getting rid of those people sooner rather than later is better for the health of the project overall. Of course, I'm sure some will argue that it's no coincidence because being effective and being toxic are inherently positively linked, but that's simply untrue in my experience, wishful thinking on the part of toxic people who want an excuse for their behaviour. Linus himself has said he was wrong to act as he did, and has worked to change that, and seen improvements for doing so.
- 5y ago