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>FSF is actually worse than closed source vendors because they are promoting ancient laptops with poor isolation and no security mitigations but they are promo

>FSF is actually worse than closed source vendors because they are promoting ancient laptops with poor isolation and no security mitigations but they are promoting such devices on ethical concerns, not on security concerns. they are not deceiving anyone >Apple has spent the past 15 years building a secure platform. You may not like some of their reasons (e.g. locking down iPhones)... but in the end it results in significantly better end-user security than a "Respects your Freedom" device you mentioned FSF fanboys before. there are way more Apple fanboys who are convinced that their Apple products respect their privacy and that their devices are impenetrable. what is worse, Apple markets itself based on this grotesque misperception! if security and privacy is a vital concern for people, Apple devices are NOT products that should handle their security concerns! you promoting Apple as secure makes you guilty of the very thing you accuse FSF of actually i would absolutely love it if there is a public non-profit organisation like FSF that is security/privacy focused - eg Secure Software Foundation - that would employ security experts to analyse and audit security and privacy of all software, free and non-free, and of course always open their findings immediately. moreover, i would definitely hope that such an organisation would be as autistic and unwavering toward open security and privacy as FSF is toward software freedom :) the fact of the matter is, while you can support both free and secure software seperately, they are seperate matters. it is possible to come to a conflict of interest type scenario. secure-software and free-software, although often sharing the same concerns, are simply not the same thing

marcan_42 5y ago
> if security and privacy is a vital concern for people, Apple devices are NOT products that should handle their security concerns! you promoting Apple as secure makes you guilty of the very thing you accuse FSF of actually You're mixing up software and hardware. I have no strong opinion on the security of Apple's (macOS) software from a user perspective. It's a proprietary OS. It gets some things right and some things wrong. There have been privacy concerns (e.g. the CSAM mess). I use it for browsing the web sometimes, but I wouldn't make it my main OS. But Apple deeply cares about platform security, and notoriously, iOS devices are some of the most secure consumer devices available. This isn't marketing bullshit - their designs are actually that good, which is something I can say as a security professional. You may or may not agree with their motivation, which ostensibly includes both customer security and keeping an iron grip on their iOS devices. But the end result is they have built excellent silicon designs with advanced security features and a very security-conscious architecture throughout. The same stuff that makes it hard to jailbreak iPhones. And so now that they stuck them in Macs and unlocked the bootloader, would I buy one? Of course. And put Linux on it. And so should you*, if you care about security. There really isn't anything else done nearly as well as these things, at least not at a performance level we'd consider decent in 2021. Yes, it might surprise you coming from Apple, but it makes sense because they did this for their own benefit. It just so happens that their motives end up with a result that aligns with what I want. And so I'll take it, thanks. I still won't use an iPhone, though. * Okay, maybe wait until we're done porting things and it runs well.
- medo-bear 5y ago
  fair enough. i value your opinion on the matters of hardware security and i am definitely not going to pretend i am an expert. i know you know your stuff. my point is that fighting for free software and fighting for security (software or hardware) can diverge i think FSF fights against non-free software because it considers it an evil for a society. i have no problems them fighting this fight, and i dont see any other candidates able to fight that fight on their level. i think that people who care about free software should at least respect them on the other hand, i think security and privacy is a seperate fight, extremely important. if you form an organisation that defends security and privacy as much as FSF defends free software, i will definitely support it and you

marcan_42 5y ago

> if security and privacy is a vital concern for people, Apple devices are NOT products that should handle their security concerns! you promoting Apple as secure makes you guilty of the very thing you accuse FSF of actually You're mixing up software and hardware. I have no strong opinion on the security of Apple's (macOS) software from a user perspective. It's a proprietary OS. It gets some things right and some things wrong. There have been privacy concerns (e.g. the CSAM mess). I use it for browsing the web sometimes, but I wouldn't make it my main OS. But Apple deeply cares about platform security, and notoriously, iOS devices are some of the most secure consumer devices available. This isn't marketing bullshit - their designs are actually that good, which is something I can say as a security professional. You may or may not agree with their motivation, which ostensibly includes both customer security and keeping an iron grip on their iOS devices. But the end result is they have built excellent silicon designs with advanced security features and a very security-conscious architecture throughout. The same stuff that makes it hard to jailbreak iPhones. And so now that they stuck them in Macs and unlocked the bootloader, would I buy one? Of course. And put Linux on it. And so should you*, if you care about security. There really isn't anything else done nearly as well as these things, at least not at a performance level we'd consider decent in 2021. Yes, it might surprise you coming from Apple, but it makes sense because they did this for their own benefit. It just so happens that their motives end up with a result that aligns with what I want. And so I'll take it, thanks. I still won't use an iPhone, though. * Okay, maybe wait until we're done porting things and it runs well.

medo-bear 5y ago
fair enough. i value your opinion on the matters of hardware security and i am definitely not going to pretend i am an expert. i know you know your stuff. my point is that fighting for free software and fighting for security (software or hardware) can diverge i think FSF fights against non-free software because it considers it an evil for a society. i have no problems them fighting this fight, and i dont see any other candidates able to fight that fight on their level. i think that people who care about free software should at least respect them on the other hand, i think security and privacy is a seperate fight, extremely important. if you form an organisation that defends security and privacy as much as FSF defends free software, i will definitely support it and you