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I would argue that the devices you carry with you are exactly the ones you shouldn’t use biometrics for. Law enforcement can force you to use biometrics to unl

I would argue that the devices you carry with you are exactly the ones you shouldn’t use biometrics for. Law enforcement can force you to use biometrics to unlock a phone. They have used dead bodies to unlock phones.[0] What they can’t do is make you remember a code/password which you have “forgotten.” [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2018/03/22/yes-cops-are-now-opening-iphones-with-dead-peoples-fingerprints/?sh=7648e44a393e https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2018/03/22/yes-c...

FridayoLeary 5y ago
The vast majority people will never encounter a circumstance where that will be an issue. To withhold a (n optional) feature from the masses based on the hypothetical actions of an agency who can abuse your fingerprints but will stop short of torture doesn't really make sense.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  HN, and the tech bubble at large, is all about "edge-cases." Too many Debbie Downers getting off on playing "what if" scenarios, while ignoring reality.
- arminiusreturns 5y ago
  1. With police authoritarian levels where they are, I doubt saying "the vast majority" won't encounter similar tactics in the near future would be correct, or at least there is evidence enough to offer strong debate on the topic. 2. Nobody claimed to then want to withhold the feature "from the masses"... so this is a strawman. 3. "hypothetical actions of an agency"... I think it's pretty clear that these types of methods are not hypothetical, and are being used already 4. "will stop short of torture"... I also think it's clear that many LEO's, especially the closer to federal ones, have been found to torture already. I agree with gp, biometrics on phones are a bad idea all around, for a lot more reasons that have been said. I don't know why you are protesting this idea as you do.
criddell 5y ago
> What they can’t do is make you remember a code/password which you have “forgotten.” They might be able to with an FMRI machine.
- smeyer 5y ago
  Maybe at some point in the future, but we definitely aren't at the stage of being able to parse out a specific password from an FMRI reading right now.
  - criddell 5y ago
    No, but combined with torture it might be effective enough.
    - GTP 5y ago
      No, I think that adding torture to the mix will make the FMRI results even less readable
      - criddell 5y ago
        What I was thinking was using FMRI to find out if they actually do remember the password (FMRI lie detection really only works with yes/no questions, AFAIK). If they don't know, then torture is a waste of time. If they do know, then you know torture may be fruitful.
        rawsta 5y ago
        FMRI uses indicators like pulse, heartrate, etc. to make a more or less estimate on the truthfulness. Torture can make these indicators useless. Torture is a very flawed method to extract informations. You can't be sure that the victim isn't telling lies or admits to crimes just to make the torture stop.
    - russh 5y ago
      They can just ‘538 it. https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
kwhitefoot 5y ago
> What they can’t do is make you remember a code/password which you have “forgotten.” But they can lock you up for not supplying it.
- ranger_danger 5y ago
  What good does this do for anyone though?
eatbitseveryday 5y ago
> Unfortunately for the FBI, Artan’s lifeless fingerprint didn’t unlock the device (an iPhone 5 model, though Moledor couldn’t recall which. Touch ID was introduced in the iPhone 5S). In the hours between his death and the attempt to unlock, when the feds had to go through legal processes regarding access to the smartphone, the iPhone had gone to sleep and when reopened required a passcode, Moledor said. From your https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2018/03/22/yes-cops-are-now-opening-iphones-with-dead-peoples-fingerprints/?sh=7648e44a393e https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2018/03/22/yes-c...
- fragmede 5y ago
  Except the FBI probably won't make that mistake again. They'll wake up a judge and expedite the process, citing this exact case as to why they need to be granted the subpoena. from there it's not that hard to make a jig that constantly does some sort of action so the phone never goes to sleep.

FridayoLeary 5y ago

The vast majority people will never encounter a circumstance where that will be an issue. To withhold a (n optional) feature from the masses based on the hypothetical actions of an agency who can abuse your fingerprints but will stop short of torture doesn't really make sense.

reaperducer 5y ago
HN, and the tech bubble at large, is all about "edge-cases." Too many Debbie Downers getting off on playing "what if" scenarios, while ignoring reality.
arminiusreturns 5y ago
1. With police authoritarian levels where they are, I doubt saying "the vast majority" won't encounter similar tactics in the near future would be correct, or at least there is evidence enough to offer strong debate on the topic. 2. Nobody claimed to then want to withhold the feature "from the masses"... so this is a strawman. 3. "hypothetical actions of an agency"... I think it's pretty clear that these types of methods are not hypothetical, and are being used already 4. "will stop short of torture"... I also think it's clear that many LEO's, especially the closer to federal ones, have been found to torture already. I agree with gp, biometrics on phones are a bad idea all around, for a lot more reasons that have been said. I don't know why you are protesting this idea as you do.

criddell 5y ago

> What they can’t do is make you remember a code/password which you have “forgotten.” They might be able to with an FMRI machine.

smeyer 5y ago
Maybe at some point in the future, but we definitely aren't at the stage of being able to parse out a specific password from an FMRI reading right now.
- criddell 5y ago
  No, but combined with torture it might be effective enough.
  - GTP 5y ago
    No, I think that adding torture to the mix will make the FMRI results even less readable
    - criddell 5y ago
      What I was thinking was using FMRI to find out if they actually do remember the password (FMRI lie detection really only works with yes/no questions, AFAIK). If they don't know, then torture is a waste of time. If they do know, then you know torture may be fruitful.
      - rawsta 5y ago
        FMRI uses indicators like pulse, heartrate, etc. to make a more or less estimate on the truthfulness. Torture can make these indicators useless. Torture is a very flawed method to extract informations. You can't be sure that the victim isn't telling lies or admits to crimes just to make the torture stop.
  - russh 5y ago
    They can just ‘538 it. https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/

kwhitefoot 5y ago

> What they can’t do is make you remember a code/password which you have “forgotten.” But they can lock you up for not supplying it.

ranger_danger 5y ago
What good does this do for anyone though?

eatbitseveryday 5y ago

> Unfortunately for the FBI, Artan’s lifeless fingerprint didn’t unlock the device (an iPhone 5 model, though Moledor couldn’t recall which. Touch ID was introduced in the iPhone 5S). In the hours between his death and the attempt to unlock, when the feds had to go through legal processes regarding access to the smartphone, the iPhone had gone to sleep and when reopened required a passcode, Moledor said. From your https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2018/03/22/yes-cops-are-now-opening-iphones-with-dead-peoples-fingerprints/?sh=7648e44a393e https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2018/03/22/yes-c...

fragmede 5y ago
Except the FBI probably won't make that mistake again. They'll wake up a judge and expedite the process, citing this exact case as to why they need to be granted the subpoena. from there it's not that hard to make a jig that constantly does some sort of action so the phone never goes to sleep.