4 ms·

I’m a bit surprised by the number of comments here basically saying if we can’t logically prove that X feels pain, then it’s fine to do whatever with it, or tha

I’m a bit surprised by the number of comments here basically saying if we can’t logically prove that X feels pain, then it’s fine to do whatever with it, or that if we don’t know exactly where the line should be drawn, then there’s no line to be drawn at all. Do you all always behave according to well-defined rules within a consistent logical system? I don’t think you can prove to me that you or your pets feel pain, so what would be the logical consequence of that?

drewg123 5y ago
People didn't think human babies could feel pain until the 1980s[1], and commonly did operations w/o anesthetic. [1]: https://www.newsweek.com/when-doctors-start-using-anesthesia-babies-medics-thought-they-couldnt-feel-pain-1625350 https://www.newsweek.com/when-doctors-start-using-anesthesia...
- q1w2 5y ago
  General anesthetic has been shown to cause brain damage. Surgery on infants without anesthetic has been shown to cause emotional differences in children. There's no good solution. Doctors were weighing consequences with little data.
  - lulzury 5y ago
    Do you have any source to back up your first claim? My understanding is that general anesthetic has been fairly well understood for some time and relatively free of long-term side-effects.
- LdSGSgvupDV 5y ago
  How to define "feel pain"? It is quite difficult and varies from person to person. I have some memories when I'm 1~3 years old. I can not "feel" any physical and mental pain at all but I might response to that pain event by crying. There is no specific meaning for crying. Maybe just like breathing? One memory is that I hit my head on a rough rock when I was at the age of learning walking and little blood flowed through my forehead. In that time, I didn't feel any pain and was curious on why adults and old sister were so "nervous". In my view, they spoke loudly than usual and rushed to me. I didn't know what they were talking about but I could feel they feared for something. Another memory is that I shot myself on breast by gas gun, and got bruise (I didn't notice that after I grew up and my parents told me). The age might be 2~4 years old. The same as first one, I did not feel any pain but the fear in adults. ps: When I was 6~7 years old, I shot myself with air gun on arm again. This time I felt the pain. That was fucking hurt.
GoblinSlayer 5y ago
I even think harm is as harmful for plants as it is for animals.
themaninthedark 5y ago
There is some overlap between this moral and philosophical line of thought and arguments for and against abortion. I have ...complicated... feelings about the issues myself but find that trying to talk about such things in person tends to lead to very heated and emotional conversation. The only thing I can be reasonably sure of is that we are very good at holding contradictory views and options about topics. Often without even realizing how contradictory our views are.

drewg123 5y ago

People didn't think human babies could feel pain until the 1980s[1], and commonly did operations w/o anesthetic. [1]: https://www.newsweek.com/when-doctors-start-using-anesthesia-babies-medics-thought-they-couldnt-feel-pain-1625350 https://www.newsweek.com/when-doctors-start-using-anesthesia...

q1w2 5y ago
General anesthetic has been shown to cause brain damage. Surgery on infants without anesthetic has been shown to cause emotional differences in children. There's no good solution. Doctors were weighing consequences with little data.
- lulzury 5y ago
  Do you have any source to back up your first claim? My understanding is that general anesthetic has been fairly well understood for some time and relatively free of long-term side-effects.
LdSGSgvupDV 5y ago
How to define "feel pain"? It is quite difficult and varies from person to person. I have some memories when I'm 1~3 years old. I can not "feel" any physical and mental pain at all but I might response to that pain event by crying. There is no specific meaning for crying. Maybe just like breathing? One memory is that I hit my head on a rough rock when I was at the age of learning walking and little blood flowed through my forehead. In that time, I didn't feel any pain and was curious on why adults and old sister were so "nervous". In my view, they spoke loudly than usual and rushed to me. I didn't know what they were talking about but I could feel they feared for something. Another memory is that I shot myself on breast by gas gun, and got bruise (I didn't notice that after I grew up and my parents told me). The age might be 2~4 years old. The same as first one, I did not feel any pain but the fear in adults. ps: When I was 6~7 years old, I shot myself with air gun on arm again. This time I felt the pain. That was fucking hurt.

GoblinSlayer 5y ago

I even think harm is as harmful for plants as it is for animals.

themaninthedark 5y ago

There is some overlap between this moral and philosophical line of thought and arguments for and against abortion. I have ...complicated... feelings about the issues myself but find that trying to talk about such things in person tends to lead to very heated and emotional conversation. The only thing I can be reasonably sure of is that we are very good at holding contradictory views and options about topics. Often without even realizing how contradictory our views are.