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> Modern Day Tech people seems to have this traits where everything should be free. I don't see how that's related, but sure. But it's not just younger folks,

> Modern Day Tech people seems to have this traits where everything should be free. I don't see how that's related, but sure. But it's not just younger folks, i remember when i was younger reading quite a few sci-fi novels about how tech would enable us to live in a paradise of abundance (asimov, anyone?). Is there a reason, in a society of abundance such as ours, why food, housing, health, and education is not 100% free? No, the only reason is "fuck you" and young people are right not to find that OK.

Retric 5y ago
People on average need to do some work, but we do a lot more than the minimums. We live in a world of practical abundance relative to any other time in human history. The reason everyone doesn’t work a 10 hour week is we want a higher living standards which is an endless cycle. In the 1400’s we didn’t grow enough food for everyone to be fat, let alone the extravagance of modern healthcare etc which is part of the minimum standards everyone wants. Yet compared to the entirety of human history things where generally going well back then. The total life savings to live like a 1920’s hobo is shockingly low. Save up ~20k and retire to a life as a homeless vagabond simply isn’t appealing. Even extreme FIRE devotees generally aim for not just a shack somewhere but all the amenities of a modern lifestyle.
sokoloff 5y ago
The unavoidable reason it’s not free is that it takes the labor and energy of others, neither of which is free. How many acres are you personally willing to farm every year so that I can eat for free?
- southerntofu 5y ago
  Of course i'm willing to do my share. And i hope you'd do yours, as well. You'd be surprised how little time it takes to feed everyone. A small portion of the population in the Global North is responsible for feeding everyone, and still most of the production is wasted in animal exploitation (feeding cattle to then eat it is really not resource-efficient if you look at it from an energy transfer angle) and food waste due to the capitalist distribution system (every supermarket needs aisles overflowing with food, 20-50% of which gets thrown out). Of course, the western "green revolution" model of industrialized monoculture is not the way to go as it has shown over the decades that it degrades the soils and renders them sterile and dry (which is starting to be a big big problem here in western Europe). But permaculture techniques can yield the same order of magnitude of foods in a much more eco-friendly/diverse and health-friendly manner (such foods are much richer in vitamins/minerals). Let's say i would be willing to give 1 month full-time work every year to help feed everyone. Although from my experience working the fields, i believe that's way more than what would be required. But then, if you really insist that you don't want to work the fields, i'm sure there's probably other ways for you to contribute to society. Maybe you're a good cook? Or know some medicine? Build some cool furniture? Play nice music or recount interesting stories? In the end, nothing is "for free" because we need to spend time on it. But everything is "for free" because time does not cost us a dime and is easily shared with more people. Arguably, we could maintain our modern lifestyle working ~1 day per week [0] by just removing useless work/jobs. If that were the case, wouldn't you be happy to do your part so that everyone can eat? [0] Many serious scientists predicted it over a century ago. But the increase in productivity per worked hour has not led us to work reduction but to creating "bullshit jobs" that do not produce anything: accounting, marketing, managers... all of these jobs are only required in a capitalist system but produce exactly 0 value for workers and end-users. Of course, "maintaining our modern lifestyle" with less work does nothing to break our dependence on extractivism and oil/gas as energy source, which we should probably do something about very fucking quickly.

Retric 5y ago

People on average need to do some work, but we do a lot more than the minimums. We live in a world of practical abundance relative to any other time in human history. The reason everyone doesn’t work a 10 hour week is we want a higher living standards which is an endless cycle. In the 1400’s we didn’t grow enough food for everyone to be fat, let alone the extravagance of modern healthcare etc which is part of the minimum standards everyone wants. Yet compared to the entirety of human history things where generally going well back then. The total life savings to live like a 1920’s hobo is shockingly low. Save up ~20k and retire to a life as a homeless vagabond simply isn’t appealing. Even extreme FIRE devotees generally aim for not just a shack somewhere but all the amenities of a modern lifestyle.

sokoloff 5y ago

The unavoidable reason it’s not free is that it takes the labor and energy of others, neither of which is free. How many acres are you personally willing to farm every year so that I can eat for free?

southerntofu 5y ago
Of course i'm willing to do my share. And i hope you'd do yours, as well. You'd be surprised how little time it takes to feed everyone. A small portion of the population in the Global North is responsible for feeding everyone, and still most of the production is wasted in animal exploitation (feeding cattle to then eat it is really not resource-efficient if you look at it from an energy transfer angle) and food waste due to the capitalist distribution system (every supermarket needs aisles overflowing with food, 20-50% of which gets thrown out). Of course, the western "green revolution" model of industrialized monoculture is not the way to go as it has shown over the decades that it degrades the soils and renders them sterile and dry (which is starting to be a big big problem here in western Europe). But permaculture techniques can yield the same order of magnitude of foods in a much more eco-friendly/diverse and health-friendly manner (such foods are much richer in vitamins/minerals). Let's say i would be willing to give 1 month full-time work every year to help feed everyone. Although from my experience working the fields, i believe that's way more than what would be required. But then, if you really insist that you don't want to work the fields, i'm sure there's probably other ways for you to contribute to society. Maybe you're a good cook? Or know some medicine? Build some cool furniture? Play nice music or recount interesting stories? In the end, nothing is "for free" because we need to spend time on it. But everything is "for free" because time does not cost us a dime and is easily shared with more people. Arguably, we could maintain our modern lifestyle working ~1 day per week [0] by just removing useless work/jobs. If that were the case, wouldn't you be happy to do your part so that everyone can eat? [0] Many serious scientists predicted it over a century ago. But the increase in productivity per worked hour has not led us to work reduction but to creating "bullshit jobs" that do not produce anything: accounting, marketing, managers... all of these jobs are only required in a capitalist system but produce exactly 0 value for workers and end-users. Of course, "maintaining our modern lifestyle" with less work does nothing to break our dependence on extractivism and oil/gas as energy source, which we should probably do something about very fucking quickly.