4 ms·

I think the issue is that the economy is supposed to in theory serve people, which most people would think means that if there is no material difference in effo

I think the issue is that the economy is supposed to in theory serve people, which most people would think means that if there is no material difference in effort to produce a part, the best most useful technology should be produced and in consumers hands. The theory of market competition says that moves like this should be impossible because it would open Intel up to being undercut by a competitor nearly instantly. However, we can see that monopoly capitalism does not function the way the legitimizing theory does. In fact, it is populated with rent seekers that manipulate the public using market segmentation strategies to profit.

vlovich123 5y ago
Price discrimination happens all the time even when there's no material difference in providing the good/service (e.g. Uber surge pricing).
- ReactiveJelly 5y ago
  At least surge pricing makes sense - when there are more fares than drivers, the fares have to pay more to be picked up first. With CPUs, it's less intuitive - The people with DRM-hamstrung CPUs are supposed to be getting a cheaper price subsidized by the people buying the product at full price. The cheaper models otherwise would have to be sold at the full price. That's not to say that Intel's prices are necessarily fair at any tier...
- b9a2cab5 5y ago
  It only happens when there is not robust competition (even 5-6 big players is not enough), which is the case in pretty much every non-commodity market today.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I have seen price discrimination/segmentation at hotels even though there are tons of hotels (senior citizen discounts, military discounts, AAA discounts, etc), and grocery stores and restaurants price discriminate heavily via coupons.
- mehrdada 5y ago
  Surge pricing of a limited resource is not exactly "price discrimination" in the way that term is used traditionally in economics. Per wikipedia: "Price discrimination is a microeconomic pricing strategy where identical or largely similar goods or services are sold at different prices..." In the case of surge pricing, there is just not enough goods or services to sell, so you simply dynamically increase the price in response to demand akin to an auction, not selling it more expensively to a subset of customers simply because they can pay and to others for lower prices (which presumes a supply surplus exists). In other words, an "Uber ride at rush hour" is not a substantially similar product to "Uber ride in off-peak time".
TomVDB 5y ago
Apply this to software, and everybody will be forced to pay the Office Pro price when they only need Office Home features. For a certain price, you can buy an Intel CPU with certain known features. For a higher price, you get more features. This is a concept that’s used in many product classes. The fact that it’s also done for HW is just an irrelevant detail.
- mehrdada 5y ago
  > Apply this to software, and everybody will be forced to pay the Office Pro price when they only need Office Home features. Or rather Microsoft makes less money producing pretty much the same products and selling close to the lower price, which is more likely, since their margin is high enough to allow it.
- strken 5y ago
  The only reason this works is that it's backed up by government enforcement of intellectual property rights. If the government didn't do that, then consumers wouldn't pay anything for office software, Microsoft Office wouldn't exist, and the whole landscape would be very different. The natural price for the second copy of a piece of software is $0. Something being known and taught in product classes doesn't make it any more acceptable. Planned obsolescence is taught in economics classes, and it's still awful despite that.
  - ComodoHacker 5y ago
    > Microsoft Office wouldn't exist I believe you're wrong. It would absolutely exist, either in cloud form, or as a rented screen-time service before that. Productivity (and other) software has a real economic value, it's not a movie you can skip and lose nothing.
  - TomVDB 5y ago
    Similarly, if my aunt had wheels, she’d be a bike. I don’t see the point in discussing lala land hypotheticals.
  - kristjansson 5y ago
Ginden 5y ago
> The theory of market competition says that moves like this should be impossible because it would open Intel up to being undercut by a competitor nearly instantly. However, we can see that monopoly capitalism does not function the way the legitimizing theory does. Can you quote single mainstream economist claiming that market entry barriers don't exist?
kristjansson 5y ago
Mainstream economics argues that the market tends toward equilibrium, not that it equilibrates instantly, and that the structure of specific markets controls the speed of that process. Modern semiconductors are fantastically capital intensive, and so respond slowly. An Intel leveraging their position to under-invest and earn outsize gains from their leadership position in x86 ... would lose business to competitors (like they have been by AMD), innovators (like they are to Nvidia) and substitutes (like they have to Apple Silicon).
- tehjoker 5y ago
  > Modern semiconductors are fantastically capital intensive, and so respond slowly. That's my point and de-legitimizes the economic model that grants them private control.
  - kristjansson 5y ago
    There's a substantial leap here from 'Intel might be temporarily able to / trying to exercise a degree of monopolistic pricing power' to 'market capitalism is illegitimate'. The response to a firm with mono{pol,pson}istic pricing power is to encourage competition, require cooperation, or force divestment.

vlovich123 5y ago

Price discrimination happens all the time even when there's no material difference in providing the good/service (e.g. Uber surge pricing).

ReactiveJelly 5y ago
At least surge pricing makes sense - when there are more fares than drivers, the fares have to pay more to be picked up first. With CPUs, it's less intuitive - The people with DRM-hamstrung CPUs are supposed to be getting a cheaper price subsidized by the people buying the product at full price. The cheaper models otherwise would have to be sold at the full price. That's not to say that Intel's prices are necessarily fair at any tier...
b9a2cab5 5y ago
It only happens when there is not robust competition (even 5-6 big players is not enough), which is the case in pretty much every non-commodity market today.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I have seen price discrimination/segmentation at hotels even though there are tons of hotels (senior citizen discounts, military discounts, AAA discounts, etc), and grocery stores and restaurants price discriminate heavily via coupons.
mehrdada 5y ago
Surge pricing of a limited resource is not exactly "price discrimination" in the way that term is used traditionally in economics. Per wikipedia: "Price discrimination is a microeconomic pricing strategy where identical or largely similar goods or services are sold at different prices..." In the case of surge pricing, there is just not enough goods or services to sell, so you simply dynamically increase the price in response to demand akin to an auction, not selling it more expensively to a subset of customers simply because they can pay and to others for lower prices (which presumes a supply surplus exists). In other words, an "Uber ride at rush hour" is not a substantially similar product to "Uber ride in off-peak time".

TomVDB 5y ago

Apply this to software, and everybody will be forced to pay the Office Pro price when they only need Office Home features. For a certain price, you can buy an Intel CPU with certain known features. For a higher price, you get more features. This is a concept that’s used in many product classes. The fact that it’s also done for HW is just an irrelevant detail.

mehrdada 5y ago
> Apply this to software, and everybody will be forced to pay the Office Pro price when they only need Office Home features. Or rather Microsoft makes less money producing pretty much the same products and selling close to the lower price, which is more likely, since their margin is high enough to allow it.
strken 5y ago
The only reason this works is that it's backed up by government enforcement of intellectual property rights. If the government didn't do that, then consumers wouldn't pay anything for office software, Microsoft Office wouldn't exist, and the whole landscape would be very different. The natural price for the second copy of a piece of software is $0. Something being known and taught in product classes doesn't make it any more acceptable. Planned obsolescence is taught in economics classes, and it's still awful despite that.
- ComodoHacker 5y ago
  > Microsoft Office wouldn't exist I believe you're wrong. It would absolutely exist, either in cloud form, or as a rented screen-time service before that. Productivity (and other) software has a real economic value, it's not a movie you can skip and lose nothing.
- TomVDB 5y ago
  Similarly, if my aunt had wheels, she’d be a bike. I don’t see the point in discussing lala land hypotheticals.
- kristjansson 5y ago

Ginden 5y ago

> The theory of market competition says that moves like this should be impossible because it would open Intel up to being undercut by a competitor nearly instantly. However, we can see that monopoly capitalism does not function the way the legitimizing theory does. Can you quote single mainstream economist claiming that market entry barriers don't exist?

kristjansson 5y ago

Mainstream economics argues that the market tends toward equilibrium, not that it equilibrates instantly, and that the structure of specific markets controls the speed of that process. Modern semiconductors are fantastically capital intensive, and so respond slowly. An Intel leveraging their position to under-invest and earn outsize gains from their leadership position in x86 ... would lose business to competitors (like they have been by AMD), innovators (like they are to Nvidia) and substitutes (like they have to Apple Silicon).

tehjoker 5y ago
> Modern semiconductors are fantastically capital intensive, and so respond slowly. That's my point and de-legitimizes the economic model that grants them private control.
- kristjansson 5y ago
  There's a substantial leap here from 'Intel might be temporarily able to / trying to exercise a degree of monopolistic pricing power' to 'market capitalism is illegitimate'. The response to a firm with mono{pol,pson}istic pricing power is to encourage competition, require cooperation, or force divestment.