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>Does being a “bug” justify being boiled alive? I'm picking on your language choices rather than the overall point of your argument, but have you ever boiled a

>Does being a “bug” justify being boiled alive? I'm picking on your language choices rather than the overall point of your argument, but have you ever boiled a live crustacean before (and by this, I specifically mean fully submerging the animal under water that is under a rolling boil on a high-temperature flame)? They don't writhe in agony and try to escape; they die pretty much instantaneously (I'm talking no movement in less than 2 seconds) and have no idea what's coming. Again, this isn't a comment on the sentience or lack thereof of crustaceans, but boiling them alive isn't nearly as cruel as people make it out to be. What we do to pigs, chickens or cows is far worse.

drekk 5y ago
What's done to pigs, chickens, and cows is a terribly low bar to clear. I suppose lighting an ant on fire with a magnifying glass isn't cruel because it happens quickly. Personally how quickly an innocent being capable of suffering and happiness is killed doesn't factor into whether I call it cruel. Morality might be subjective, but the alternative requires accepting that needless, preventable death and suffering is ethical
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  The vegan argument is definitely a legitimate one, and not something I was trying to refute. A lot of meat eaters have these strange ideas about what is and isn't cruel (the classic being "hunting is evil but eating farmed meat is totally OK"), ostensibly based on reducing unnecessary suffering but also completely devoid of hands-on understanding of what actually happens. I will disagree with you on this point, though: >innocent being I've kept yabbies in a tank before as pets. They're absolutely metal creatures and will do things like rip the legs off of live rivals one by one, then slowly tear them apart over the course of hours. I saw one spear a fish wish its claw and pull its guts out too (as if unreeling a spool), just because it could. They're supposed to be herbivorous but damn can they be cold-hearted killers. (Crabs are far more social, apparently, but I've not seen them interacting before).
  - chimpansteve 5y ago
    As someone who grew up on a small beef farm in the UK but is also very picky about the source of the meat he eats, my personal anecdotal experience is that vegan or meat eater, the problem is that the vast majority of people have never been within 100m of livestock, and have zero comprehension of where their food actually comes from or how it arrives in their nice refrigerated trays. The cows on my dad's farm probably had a better life than the dogs. There's a definite argument to made that they had a better life than me, and I was from a very happy and loving household. The same could not be said for the large scale conglomerate farm up the road. It's a distinction most people are simply incapable of making, because they just aren't exposed to it.
    - onion2k 5y ago
      Quality of life isn't the whole story though. Longevity matters too. When I was a child if someone had asked me "Would you like to live a life of opulent luxury but be killed when you're 20?" I'd have said no. There is no doubt that a good farm is better than a bad farm, but neither is particularly great if you're a cow.
      - Taywee 5y ago
        I think it really depends what the alternative is. If it's that vs living in the wilderness in a small family and no other support against the elements or vicious predators, that's not such as easy decision. Cows don't have a support system, society, government, or social welfare in their non-farm state. They just try to survive the elements and the environment.
        jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
        > If it's that vs living in the wilderness That seems like a false dichotomy considering farmers aren't going out and rescuing cows from the wilderness and giving them the roof and food they didn't have on their own. An alternative is to not breed them in the first place.
- Gwarzo 5y ago
  Killing animals for food is neither needless, preventable or causing of excessive suffering by default.
jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
A quick search shows a lot of sites saying it takes about 3 minutes for death, though I don't know what the original source is. But that makes sense to me. I mean, how would boiling water cause instant death? Do you think if you were dunked in boiling water you would instantly die? Granted we don't have the same physiology as lobsters, but, what exactly is the physical mechanism that would cause instant death from 100°C water?
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  >what exactly is the physical mechanism that would cause instant death from 100°C water I honestly don't know. I just know I chucked a yabby (small crayfish) in a pot and it died instantly. Larger ones might take a tiny bit longer, but I'd be really surprised if it were more than three minutes. They're basically ready to eat by then.
  - jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
    Fair enough. I haven't seen it myself so I can only speculate.
- drewm1980 5y ago
  Brains are mostly fat... so it could be the time for enough heat to transfer into the brain for it to melt and all the neurons short out. Getting too hot is way more dangerous for your brain than getting too cold. Some brains can also rapidly shut down consciousness in response to overwhelming pain, but I suspect that's not relevant for lobsters... getting their limbs torn off and re-growing them is a thing. If a bigger lobster rips your arm off, you'd better remember where it happened and respect their territory.
  - jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
    That's also what I figured does them in but I would think it'd take longer to conduct enough heat to do that. Considering cooking directions are 10+ minutes to cook through.

drekk 5y ago

What's done to pigs, chickens, and cows is a terribly low bar to clear. I suppose lighting an ant on fire with a magnifying glass isn't cruel because it happens quickly. Personally how quickly an innocent being capable of suffering and happiness is killed doesn't factor into whether I call it cruel. Morality might be subjective, but the alternative requires accepting that needless, preventable death and suffering is ethical

AussieWog93 5y ago
The vegan argument is definitely a legitimate one, and not something I was trying to refute. A lot of meat eaters have these strange ideas about what is and isn't cruel (the classic being "hunting is evil but eating farmed meat is totally OK"), ostensibly based on reducing unnecessary suffering but also completely devoid of hands-on understanding of what actually happens. I will disagree with you on this point, though: >innocent being I've kept yabbies in a tank before as pets. They're absolutely metal creatures and will do things like rip the legs off of live rivals one by one, then slowly tear them apart over the course of hours. I saw one spear a fish wish its claw and pull its guts out too (as if unreeling a spool), just because it could. They're supposed to be herbivorous but damn can they be cold-hearted killers. (Crabs are far more social, apparently, but I've not seen them interacting before).
- chimpansteve 5y ago
  As someone who grew up on a small beef farm in the UK but is also very picky about the source of the meat he eats, my personal anecdotal experience is that vegan or meat eater, the problem is that the vast majority of people have never been within 100m of livestock, and have zero comprehension of where their food actually comes from or how it arrives in their nice refrigerated trays. The cows on my dad's farm probably had a better life than the dogs. There's a definite argument to made that they had a better life than me, and I was from a very happy and loving household. The same could not be said for the large scale conglomerate farm up the road. It's a distinction most people are simply incapable of making, because they just aren't exposed to it.
  - onion2k 5y ago
    Quality of life isn't the whole story though. Longevity matters too. When I was a child if someone had asked me "Would you like to live a life of opulent luxury but be killed when you're 20?" I'd have said no. There is no doubt that a good farm is better than a bad farm, but neither is particularly great if you're a cow.
    - Taywee 5y ago
      I think it really depends what the alternative is. If it's that vs living in the wilderness in a small family and no other support against the elements or vicious predators, that's not such as easy decision. Cows don't have a support system, society, government, or social welfare in their non-farm state. They just try to survive the elements and the environment.
      - jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
        > If it's that vs living in the wilderness That seems like a false dichotomy considering farmers aren't going out and rescuing cows from the wilderness and giving them the roof and food they didn't have on their own. An alternative is to not breed them in the first place.
Gwarzo 5y ago
Killing animals for food is neither needless, preventable or causing of excessive suffering by default.

jallen_dot_dev 5y ago

A quick search shows a lot of sites saying it takes about 3 minutes for death, though I don't know what the original source is. But that makes sense to me. I mean, how would boiling water cause instant death? Do you think if you were dunked in boiling water you would instantly die? Granted we don't have the same physiology as lobsters, but, what exactly is the physical mechanism that would cause instant death from 100°C water?

AussieWog93 5y ago
>what exactly is the physical mechanism that would cause instant death from 100°C water I honestly don't know. I just know I chucked a yabby (small crayfish) in a pot and it died instantly. Larger ones might take a tiny bit longer, but I'd be really surprised if it were more than three minutes. They're basically ready to eat by then.
- jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
  Fair enough. I haven't seen it myself so I can only speculate.
drewm1980 5y ago
Brains are mostly fat... so it could be the time for enough heat to transfer into the brain for it to melt and all the neurons short out. Getting too hot is way more dangerous for your brain than getting too cold. Some brains can also rapidly shut down consciousness in response to overwhelming pain, but I suspect that's not relevant for lobsters... getting their limbs torn off and re-growing them is a thing. If a bigger lobster rips your arm off, you'd better remember where it happened and respect their territory.
- jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
  That's also what I figured does them in but I would think it'd take longer to conduct enough heat to do that. Considering cooking directions are 10+ minutes to cook through.