8 ms·

Not the idea, but the act, if I'm going to be pedantic. If the law would've been on my side and I would've seen my car broken into with someone in there, I woul

Not the idea, but the act, if I'm going to be pedantic. If the law would've been on my side and I would've seen my car broken into with someone in there, I would not hesitate to use lethal force at that point.

ketzo 5y ago
Wow, okay, I guess we are just on fundamentally different pages. That is, quite frankly, sickening to me. I cannot imagine valuing human life – any human life – so lowly.
- CamperBob2 5y ago
  That is, quite frankly, sickening to me. I cannot imagine valuing human life – any human life – so lowly Don't tell me, tell the perp. He's the one who determined what his life was worth.
  - foxfluff 5y ago
    Maybe the poor kid didn't know the car's owner is a sick psycho.
    - Eelongate 5y ago
      Every thief in America knows they're putting their life on the line.
    - not_really 5y ago
      I think you meant to say "law-abiding citizen".
    - foxrider 5y ago
      I think this comment is really good at highlighting the rift here. So the "poor kid" should know that it's OK to steal from decent folks, because they would never "devalue" his life for such a small thing. But, the same "poor kid", would've never risked stealing from sick psychos like myself. The only conclusion I get from this is that it's better to be a sick psycho, because then people would only try to steal something from you by mistake.
      - palmetieri2000 5y ago
        People dont choose the circumstances they are born into, most of us non-US folk consider criminals as victims of their environment who need guidance to recognize that there are better ways to go about their life. We tend to believe that there are some criminal that are doing what they need to survive, and some who like doing their crime but that both, with genuine rehabilitation, would prefer to NOT be engaging in crime. This does not absolve them of responsibility for crimes or harm done to others (In the cat converter discussion, this is the punishment a court would give them if they were prosecuted. Not a citizen executing them.) , but it does grant them the same humanity as everyone else. This is a part of why we don't believe in court ordered execution in Australia. You conclusion feels very representative of the US on killing each other, clearly the superior option to being a psycho or being the victimized 'decent folks' is to improve the quality of life for the thief and create disincentive for criminality by providing opportunities. Instead you focus on the retribution/threat element, using your almighty constitutional rights to enforce the protection of a car part. Look, it has been many many many years now in which US citizens have had guns and the right to shoot motherfuckers, how's that violent crime rate? what about thefts? muggings? any less cat converters getting stolen? Funnily enough, yes! Just in others countries that aren't so focused on punitive bullshit that they think its at all ethical to kill anyone for a car part.
        foxrider 5y ago
        See, I'm not an american, as I've mentioned before. I can see both points, and this is my view of the situation, that you are free to call hypocritical, yet I wouldn't be able to offer anything better: Both views are right depending on your vantage point. Yes, criminals as a class/as a whole deserve pity and rehabilitation if they are apprehended by the law. I see no point in just punishing people for extended amount of time, especially because it's proven not to decrease the repeated offense. If someone's in custody and receives the sentence - yes, give them the rehabilitation and help, let them enjoy the second chance and all that - because that would make people more safe, as opposed to less safe, that's a good outcome. However, I would also say - do not expect mercy or pity from individuals you're committing a crime against. I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone who's a victim of a crime to offer any sympathy or moral consideration to the criminal in the act, and we should not look down at or punish people using lethal force to prevent a crime. IMO and individual has every right to protect himself in any possible way, as long as it prevents him from becoming a victim. I would never be able to accept that sometimes it's better to let someone commit a crime against you to not victimize them instead. Can we have both? My opinion is that yes, I see no contradiction here. I don't think we should have the same standards for the justice system and the individual.
  - ketzo 5y ago
    What? You’re gonna point a gun at someone who is not threatening your personal safety in any way, and tell me they gave away their life? What sort of moral framework do you subscribe to that makes that okay?
    - doekle 5y ago
      It’s a particularly violent strain of freedom that is widely practiced in the United States, notably Texas and Florida who both have wide-ranging legal frameworks to support it, and which values material property highly enough to take life over it even with no mortal danger to the owner. As in, a situation where even a police officer in most places wouldn’t pull the trigger. The rest of us wish they were in another country because they’re increasingly shaping America in their image. If that’s genuinely America, well, I’m not American. It’s a very powerful realization to have that being born a place does not necessarily make you a fitting member of the place, and that’s the exact outcome those folks want, too. If you interact with those folks and press them on the moral authority given to pull the trigger, you’ll eventually be called a soft pussy and told Canada is open for immigration because they absolutely cannot answer the question (it’s unanswerable and simply wrong). Apropos: flagged for answering you truthfully and honestly. I took the side valuing life and setting a higher bar for taking it, and in doing so offended at least two people enough to flag a positive-scored comment. What more needs to be said about the horror that surrounds us?
    - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
      Yup.
  - mitigating 5y ago
    Do you think a person who is stealing catalytic converters thinks like that? They already could get crushed by the car and don't seem to care. You are the only one in the situation who thought it through and still made the decision to end a life, you are a sociopath.

ketzo 5y ago

Wow, okay, I guess we are just on fundamentally different pages. That is, quite frankly, sickening to me. I cannot imagine valuing human life – any human life – so lowly.

CamperBob2 5y ago
That is, quite frankly, sickening to me. I cannot imagine valuing human life – any human life – so lowly Don't tell me, tell the perp. He's the one who determined what his life was worth.
- foxfluff 5y ago
  Maybe the poor kid didn't know the car's owner is a sick psycho.
  - Eelongate 5y ago
    Every thief in America knows they're putting their life on the line.
  - not_really 5y ago
    I think you meant to say "law-abiding citizen".
  - foxrider 5y ago
    I think this comment is really good at highlighting the rift here. So the "poor kid" should know that it's OK to steal from decent folks, because they would never "devalue" his life for such a small thing. But, the same "poor kid", would've never risked stealing from sick psychos like myself. The only conclusion I get from this is that it's better to be a sick psycho, because then people would only try to steal something from you by mistake.
    - palmetieri2000 5y ago
      People dont choose the circumstances they are born into, most of us non-US folk consider criminals as victims of their environment who need guidance to recognize that there are better ways to go about their life. We tend to believe that there are some criminal that are doing what they need to survive, and some who like doing their crime but that both, with genuine rehabilitation, would prefer to NOT be engaging in crime. This does not absolve them of responsibility for crimes or harm done to others (In the cat converter discussion, this is the punishment a court would give them if they were prosecuted. Not a citizen executing them.) , but it does grant them the same humanity as everyone else. This is a part of why we don't believe in court ordered execution in Australia. You conclusion feels very representative of the US on killing each other, clearly the superior option to being a psycho or being the victimized 'decent folks' is to improve the quality of life for the thief and create disincentive for criminality by providing opportunities. Instead you focus on the retribution/threat element, using your almighty constitutional rights to enforce the protection of a car part. Look, it has been many many many years now in which US citizens have had guns and the right to shoot motherfuckers, how's that violent crime rate? what about thefts? muggings? any less cat converters getting stolen? Funnily enough, yes! Just in others countries that aren't so focused on punitive bullshit that they think its at all ethical to kill anyone for a car part.
      - foxrider 5y ago
        See, I'm not an american, as I've mentioned before. I can see both points, and this is my view of the situation, that you are free to call hypocritical, yet I wouldn't be able to offer anything better: Both views are right depending on your vantage point. Yes, criminals as a class/as a whole deserve pity and rehabilitation if they are apprehended by the law. I see no point in just punishing people for extended amount of time, especially because it's proven not to decrease the repeated offense. If someone's in custody and receives the sentence - yes, give them the rehabilitation and help, let them enjoy the second chance and all that - because that would make people more safe, as opposed to less safe, that's a good outcome. However, I would also say - do not expect mercy or pity from individuals you're committing a crime against. I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone who's a victim of a crime to offer any sympathy or moral consideration to the criminal in the act, and we should not look down at or punish people using lethal force to prevent a crime. IMO and individual has every right to protect himself in any possible way, as long as it prevents him from becoming a victim. I would never be able to accept that sometimes it's better to let someone commit a crime against you to not victimize them instead. Can we have both? My opinion is that yes, I see no contradiction here. I don't think we should have the same standards for the justice system and the individual.
- ketzo 5y ago
  What? You’re gonna point a gun at someone who is not threatening your personal safety in any way, and tell me they gave away their life? What sort of moral framework do you subscribe to that makes that okay?
  - doekle 5y ago
    It’s a particularly violent strain of freedom that is widely practiced in the United States, notably Texas and Florida who both have wide-ranging legal frameworks to support it, and which values material property highly enough to take life over it even with no mortal danger to the owner. As in, a situation where even a police officer in most places wouldn’t pull the trigger. The rest of us wish they were in another country because they’re increasingly shaping America in their image. If that’s genuinely America, well, I’m not American. It’s a very powerful realization to have that being born a place does not necessarily make you a fitting member of the place, and that’s the exact outcome those folks want, too. If you interact with those folks and press them on the moral authority given to pull the trigger, you’ll eventually be called a soft pussy and told Canada is open for immigration because they absolutely cannot answer the question (it’s unanswerable and simply wrong). Apropos: flagged for answering you truthfully and honestly. I took the side valuing life and setting a higher bar for taking it, and in doing so offended at least two people enough to flag a positive-scored comment. What more needs to be said about the horror that surrounds us?
  - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
    Yup.
- mitigating 5y ago
  Do you think a person who is stealing catalytic converters thinks like that? They already could get crushed by the car and don't seem to care. You are the only one in the situation who thought it through and still made the decision to end a life, you are a sociopath.