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Yeah, if it's not clear cut - don't shoot anyone. I'm talking about people who are in the process of the crime when you caught them as it happened, not about so

Yeah, if it's not clear cut - don't shoot anyone. I'm talking about people who are in the process of the crime when you caught them as it happened, not about some kind of vigilante track-them-down. As for shooting someone - I haven't, and I hope I'll never have to, but I can't imagine feeling remorseful for stopping a crime against myself. Yeah 10$ is pushing it, but as I've said - it's more about the violation than the actual value here. I have no idea what someone is trying to steal from the car, but just breaking into it is enough.

ketzo 5y ago
To be clear: the idea of someone breaking into your car is enough to justify ending a human life?
- foxrider 5y ago
  Not the idea, but the act, if I'm going to be pedantic. If the law would've been on my side and I would've seen my car broken into with someone in there, I would not hesitate to use lethal force at that point.
  - ketzo 5y ago
    Wow, okay, I guess we are just on fundamentally different pages. That is, quite frankly, sickening to me. I cannot imagine valuing human life – any human life – so lowly.
    - CamperBob2 5y ago
      That is, quite frankly, sickening to me. I cannot imagine valuing human life – any human life – so lowly Don't tell me, tell the perp. He's the one who determined what his life was worth.
      - foxfluff 5y ago
        Maybe the poor kid didn't know the car's owner is a sick psycho.
        Eelongate 5y ago
        Every thief in America knows they're putting their life on the line.
        not_really 5y ago
        I think you meant to say "law-abiding citizen".
        foxrider 5y ago
        I think this comment is really good at highlighting the rift here. So the "poor kid" should know that it's OK to steal from decent folks, because they would never "devalue" his life for such a small thing. But, the same "poor kid", would've never risked stealing from sick psychos like myself. The only conclusion I get from this is that it's better to be a sick psycho, because then people would only try to steal something from you by mistake.
        palmetieri2000 5y ago
        People dont choose the circumstances they are born into, most of us non-US folk consider criminals as victims of their environment who need guidance to recognize that there are better ways to go about their life. We tend to believe that there are some criminal that are doing what they need to survive, and some who like doing their crime but that both, with genuine rehabilitation, would prefer to NOT be engaging in crime. This does not absolve them of responsibility for crimes or harm done to others (In the cat converter discussion, this is the punishment a court would give them if they were prosecuted. Not a citizen executing them.) , but it does grant them the same humanity as everyone else. This is a part of why we don't believe in court ordered execution in Australia. You conclusion feels very representative of the US on killing each other, clearly the superior option to being a psycho or being the victimized 'decent folks' is to improve the quality of life for the thief and create disincentive for criminality by providing opportunities. Instead you focus on the retribution/threat element, using your almighty constitutional rights to enforce the protection of a car part. Look, it has been many many many years now in which US citizens have had guns and the right to shoot motherfuckers, how's that violent crime rate? what about thefts? muggings? any less cat converters getting stolen? Funnily enough, yes! Just in others countries that aren't so focused on punitive bullshit that they think its at all ethical to kill anyone for a car part.
      - ketzo 5y ago
        What? You’re gonna point a gun at someone who is not threatening your personal safety in any way, and tell me they gave away their life? What sort of moral framework do you subscribe to that makes that okay?
        doekle 5y ago
        It’s a particularly violent strain of freedom that is widely practiced in the United States, notably Texas and Florida who both have wide-ranging legal frameworks to support it, and which values material property highly enough to take life over it even with no mortal danger to the owner. As in, a situation where even a police officer in most places wouldn’t pull the trigger. The rest of us wish they were in another country because they’re increasingly shaping America in their image. If that’s genuinely America, well, I’m not American. It’s a very powerful realization to have that being born a place does not necessarily make you a fitting member of the place, and that’s the exact outcome those folks want, too. If you interact with those folks and press them on the moral authority given to pull the trigger, you’ll eventually be called a soft pussy and told Canada is open for immigration because they absolutely cannot answer the question (it’s unanswerable and simply wrong). Apropos: flagged for answering you truthfully and honestly. I took the side valuing life and setting a higher bar for taking it, and in doing so offended at least two people enough to flag a positive-scored comment. What more needs to be said about the horror that surrounds us?
        0x0nyandesu 5y ago
        Yup.
      - mitigating 5y ago
        Do you think a person who is stealing catalytic converters thinks like that? They already could get crushed by the car and don't seem to care. You are the only one in the situation who thought it through and still made the decision to end a life, you are a sociopath.
- gretch 5y ago
  It’s not quite enough for me, but I would not judge others if they drew the line there certainly. Also keep in mind that while it’s happening, you have no idea how far this individual intends to go. Were they just intending minor theft? Or maybe they broke into your car because they were trying to get to you? If they announce their intentions, do you even believe them? Of course it’s easy to make the decision in the middle of the day with perfect information. Now picture waking up at 2am to sounds in your drive way and there’s 2 or 3 guys out there fucking with your car.
  - cmac2992 5y ago
    One way to have better information about the situation is to not shoot them.
    - gretch 5y ago
      Again, very easy to say as you talk about the issue in the abstract, behind a keyboard across the internet. Wake up in the middle of the night to strangers at your home - you just caught a bunch of people in the middle of committing a felony and maybe they are not the type to leave witnesses behind. I don't know if you are putting on the airs of being a brave knight, or you truly are detached, but there's such a thing as visceral fear that people are coming to take your stuff or hurt you. Be glad that you've lived a privileged life where you've never known such a fear
      - ketzo 5y ago
        The strangers are outside my home, and your suggestion is to leave my home to confront them? With lethal force? That is crazy to me. Truly insane. If they tried to enter my home or harm my loved ones, that’s a different story. But if I saw people destroying my property, not attempting to get to me, I would call the police and lock the doors, not go fucking hunting.
        gretch 5y ago
        No one in this thread that I've seen is using the language of hunting. No one is saying "boy I wish some fools would come try some shit so I can bag a couple of heads". Do those people exist in the world? Sure, of course there are. There's a few people of every view point given 7 billion of us. Here people are saying, "Well I can't just let them have this valuable part of my car (that I might not be able to afford to replace). And I'm pretty sure the police aren't going to help me. And I don't think they will stop if I ask them. So I guess I have to shoot" If you've already judged those people in your head as "hunters", then you're the one who's lost, not them. You have this completely distorted perception of your fellow human perhaps based on the media reporting on 0.0001% of crazy people in the world, and now you believe everyone who lives in texas thinks that way or something.
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  For me? No. For a single parent who needs that car to provide for their kids and risks losing their job if they don’t have it? Perhaps.
Tronno 5y ago
> Yeah, if it's not clear cut - don't shoot anyone. I'm talking about people who are in the process of the crime when you caught them as it happened Can we trust you to accurately determine which situations are "clear cut" (and therefore justify summary execution)? Can we trust any random with a gun to make that determination? And can we trust them when they're the only surviving witness? Is it a crime worthy of death when someone wanders onto your property due to some kind of mental illness? Is it a crime to accidentally open the wrong door? What about when you accidentally open the wrong door (see Amber Guyger)? Is it a crime to be in a store 1 minute after closing time? Or to walk on someone's property to deliver a package? Is it a crime to upset someone at the bar and then turn up dead on their property, "in the process of committing a robbery"? You are advocating for giving everyone the power of judge, jury, and executioner, regardless of whether they are qualified or honest. And you are encouraging those people to engage in gun battles where the "victim" is also at risk of death. Spend more time thinking about your opinions.
- mise_en_place 5y ago
  > Is it a crime worthy of death when someone wanders onto your property due to some kind of mental illness? Is it a crime to accidentally open the wrong door? What about when you accidentally open the wrong door (see Amber Guyger)? Is it a crime to be in a store 1 minute after closing time? Or to walk on someone's property to deliver a package? One does not have the luxury to perform moral analyses of this nature when somebody hostile is running toward them with ill intent. In the heat of the moment, you have to make split second decisions to survive.
  - Tronno 5y ago
    OP was trying to justify killing thieves and trespassers on sight. Self-defense is a completely different issue.
redanddead 5y ago
Here's another viewpoint: why is 10$ so valuable and life-ending for you? I would argue that the fact that one would be so scared of losing money would be that they fear losing their shelter, food, water etc., no? Would it therefore not be more condemnable that a society is pitting people against each other in such a way that money is survival? Isn't this Squidgame's whole point?

ketzo 5y ago

To be clear: the idea of someone breaking into your car is enough to justify ending a human life?

foxrider 5y ago
Not the idea, but the act, if I'm going to be pedantic. If the law would've been on my side and I would've seen my car broken into with someone in there, I would not hesitate to use lethal force at that point.
- ketzo 5y ago
  Wow, okay, I guess we are just on fundamentally different pages. That is, quite frankly, sickening to me. I cannot imagine valuing human life – any human life – so lowly.
  - CamperBob2 5y ago
    That is, quite frankly, sickening to me. I cannot imagine valuing human life – any human life – so lowly Don't tell me, tell the perp. He's the one who determined what his life was worth.
    - foxfluff 5y ago
      Maybe the poor kid didn't know the car's owner is a sick psycho.
      - Eelongate 5y ago
        Every thief in America knows they're putting their life on the line.
      - not_really 5y ago
        I think you meant to say "law-abiding citizen".
      - foxrider 5y ago
        I think this comment is really good at highlighting the rift here. So the "poor kid" should know that it's OK to steal from decent folks, because they would never "devalue" his life for such a small thing. But, the same "poor kid", would've never risked stealing from sick psychos like myself. The only conclusion I get from this is that it's better to be a sick psycho, because then people would only try to steal something from you by mistake.
        palmetieri2000 5y ago
        People dont choose the circumstances they are born into, most of us non-US folk consider criminals as victims of their environment who need guidance to recognize that there are better ways to go about their life. We tend to believe that there are some criminal that are doing what they need to survive, and some who like doing their crime but that both, with genuine rehabilitation, would prefer to NOT be engaging in crime. This does not absolve them of responsibility for crimes or harm done to others (In the cat converter discussion, this is the punishment a court would give them if they were prosecuted. Not a citizen executing them.) , but it does grant them the same humanity as everyone else. This is a part of why we don't believe in court ordered execution in Australia. You conclusion feels very representative of the US on killing each other, clearly the superior option to being a psycho or being the victimized 'decent folks' is to improve the quality of life for the thief and create disincentive for criminality by providing opportunities. Instead you focus on the retribution/threat element, using your almighty constitutional rights to enforce the protection of a car part. Look, it has been many many many years now in which US citizens have had guns and the right to shoot motherfuckers, how's that violent crime rate? what about thefts? muggings? any less cat converters getting stolen? Funnily enough, yes! Just in others countries that aren't so focused on punitive bullshit that they think its at all ethical to kill anyone for a car part.
    - ketzo 5y ago
      What? You’re gonna point a gun at someone who is not threatening your personal safety in any way, and tell me they gave away their life? What sort of moral framework do you subscribe to that makes that okay?
      - doekle 5y ago
        It’s a particularly violent strain of freedom that is widely practiced in the United States, notably Texas and Florida who both have wide-ranging legal frameworks to support it, and which values material property highly enough to take life over it even with no mortal danger to the owner. As in, a situation where even a police officer in most places wouldn’t pull the trigger. The rest of us wish they were in another country because they’re increasingly shaping America in their image. If that’s genuinely America, well, I’m not American. It’s a very powerful realization to have that being born a place does not necessarily make you a fitting member of the place, and that’s the exact outcome those folks want, too. If you interact with those folks and press them on the moral authority given to pull the trigger, you’ll eventually be called a soft pussy and told Canada is open for immigration because they absolutely cannot answer the question (it’s unanswerable and simply wrong). Apropos: flagged for answering you truthfully and honestly. I took the side valuing life and setting a higher bar for taking it, and in doing so offended at least two people enough to flag a positive-scored comment. What more needs to be said about the horror that surrounds us?
      - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
        Yup.
    - mitigating 5y ago
      Do you think a person who is stealing catalytic converters thinks like that? They already could get crushed by the car and don't seem to care. You are the only one in the situation who thought it through and still made the decision to end a life, you are a sociopath.
gretch 5y ago
It’s not quite enough for me, but I would not judge others if they drew the line there certainly. Also keep in mind that while it’s happening, you have no idea how far this individual intends to go. Were they just intending minor theft? Or maybe they broke into your car because they were trying to get to you? If they announce their intentions, do you even believe them? Of course it’s easy to make the decision in the middle of the day with perfect information. Now picture waking up at 2am to sounds in your drive way and there’s 2 or 3 guys out there fucking with your car.
- cmac2992 5y ago
  One way to have better information about the situation is to not shoot them.
  - gretch 5y ago
    Again, very easy to say as you talk about the issue in the abstract, behind a keyboard across the internet. Wake up in the middle of the night to strangers at your home - you just caught a bunch of people in the middle of committing a felony and maybe they are not the type to leave witnesses behind. I don't know if you are putting on the airs of being a brave knight, or you truly are detached, but there's such a thing as visceral fear that people are coming to take your stuff or hurt you. Be glad that you've lived a privileged life where you've never known such a fear
    - ketzo 5y ago
      The strangers are outside my home, and your suggestion is to leave my home to confront them? With lethal force? That is crazy to me. Truly insane. If they tried to enter my home or harm my loved ones, that’s a different story. But if I saw people destroying my property, not attempting to get to me, I would call the police and lock the doors, not go fucking hunting.
      - gretch 5y ago
        No one in this thread that I've seen is using the language of hunting. No one is saying "boy I wish some fools would come try some shit so I can bag a couple of heads". Do those people exist in the world? Sure, of course there are. There's a few people of every view point given 7 billion of us. Here people are saying, "Well I can't just let them have this valuable part of my car (that I might not be able to afford to replace). And I'm pretty sure the police aren't going to help me. And I don't think they will stop if I ask them. So I guess I have to shoot" If you've already judged those people in your head as "hunters", then you're the one who's lost, not them. You have this completely distorted perception of your fellow human perhaps based on the media reporting on 0.0001% of crazy people in the world, and now you believe everyone who lives in texas thinks that way or something.
alasdair_ 5y ago
For me? No. For a single parent who needs that car to provide for their kids and risks losing their job if they don’t have it? Perhaps.

Tronno 5y ago

> Yeah, if it's not clear cut - don't shoot anyone. I'm talking about people who are in the process of the crime when you caught them as it happened Can we trust you to accurately determine which situations are "clear cut" (and therefore justify summary execution)? Can we trust any random with a gun to make that determination? And can we trust them when they're the only surviving witness? Is it a crime worthy of death when someone wanders onto your property due to some kind of mental illness? Is it a crime to accidentally open the wrong door? What about when you accidentally open the wrong door (see Amber Guyger)? Is it a crime to be in a store 1 minute after closing time? Or to walk on someone's property to deliver a package? Is it a crime to upset someone at the bar and then turn up dead on their property, "in the process of committing a robbery"? You are advocating for giving everyone the power of judge, jury, and executioner, regardless of whether they are qualified or honest. And you are encouraging those people to engage in gun battles where the "victim" is also at risk of death. Spend more time thinking about your opinions.

mise_en_place 5y ago
> Is it a crime worthy of death when someone wanders onto your property due to some kind of mental illness? Is it a crime to accidentally open the wrong door? What about when you accidentally open the wrong door (see Amber Guyger)? Is it a crime to be in a store 1 minute after closing time? Or to walk on someone's property to deliver a package? One does not have the luxury to perform moral analyses of this nature when somebody hostile is running toward them with ill intent. In the heat of the moment, you have to make split second decisions to survive.
- Tronno 5y ago
  OP was trying to justify killing thieves and trespassers on sight. Self-defense is a completely different issue.

redanddead 5y ago

Here's another viewpoint: why is 10$ so valuable and life-ending for you? I would argue that the fact that one would be so scared of losing money would be that they fear losing their shelter, food, water etc., no? Would it therefore not be more condemnable that a society is pitting people against each other in such a way that money is survival? Isn't this Squidgame's whole point?