11 ms·

125 - 190W thermals.... That seems like a lot, almost into server territory. Sacrificing ~5% "game performance" (such a nebulous number given how varied the CP

125 - 190W thermals.... That seems like a lot, almost into server territory. Sacrificing ~5% "game performance" (such a nebulous number given how varied the CPU/GPU load can be between games) for being able to sit comfortably in the same room seems like a no brainer. This still feels like a halo product? Except does the i5 or such compete well enough with Ryzen for that to work? I'm curious to see how AMD responds, I wonder if they're chiplet method lends itself well to launching their own hybrid E/P core architecture alongside "3D V-cache".

jpalomaki 5y ago
Maybe we should start looking at placing the computer away from the gamer. There seems to be for example optical TB3 cables, maybe something like this could be part of the solution. https://www.macrumors.com/2020/03/26/optical-thunderbolt-3-cables/amp/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/03/26/optical-thunderbolt-3-c...
cyber_kinetist 5y ago
I don't think most consumers would really care about power consumption at full load. From looking at some benchmarks, Intel seems to have okay thermals for gaming or light productivity tasks (thanks to the P-E core split). If you're doing any sort of rendering or number-crunching you're in trouble (unless you have a liquid cooler, which to be honest really sucks), but most people aren't that kind of person.
- tehbeard 5y ago
  > Intel seems to have okay thermals for gaming or light productivity tasks That's not what you buy an i7 for though, is it? An i7 is typically for "I have work to do when not gaming" or content creators starting out, where as an i5 is more the category for gaming and light productivity / "the family pc". Getting an i7 exclusively for gaming seems more for bragging rights on "fastest CPU".
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    Depends on the type of game. There was a period of time in the 2010s where CPUs were rarely the bottleneck in gaming. But with the advent of better graphics techniques and more powerful graphics cards, along with more ambitious scenes and simulations, there are many cases today where a strong CPU is required for gaming. A recent example is Battlefield 2042. When I first got the game I had an AMD 3700X, which is no slouch of a CPU. But it could only drive the game at about 70fps, no matter the resolution. After an upgrade to a 5900X, I can run the game at 110-120fps. The strongest i5s would likely struggle to hit a stable 60fps on this game.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      So what you're saying really is that the 3700X had absolutely no issues whatsoever running that game. Yes it's nicer to play in 120fps, but it's not like you couldn't play the game because of the CPU. I know someone who had to upgrade from an older 4-core i7 to a modern CPU because Horizon 5 was actually stuttering. But the CPU "limiting" you when you're comfortably above 60fps, and you aren't playing competitive eSports, is not really a limit, just like how my car accelerating really poorly past 150mph is not really a limit in any real sense of the word.
      - satvikpendem 5y ago
        I mean, that's your personal opinion on >60 FPS gaming, it's not universally shared. I for one enjoy even single player games at the highest FPS I can get, which is why I have a 1080p 240 hz monitor. If the parent likes their games higher than 60 FPS then to them their 3700x really was a limiter in their enjoyment, something which the 5900x would not be for them.
      - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
        > So what you're saying really is that the 3700X had absolutely no issues whatsoever running that game. Perhaps to specifications that would satisfy someone else. My requirements are ~120fps and 4k. For those requirements, no existing i5 would cut muster. > But the CPU "limiting" you when you're comfortably above 60fps I never used the word "limiting" in my comment. Not sure what you're quoting from. That being said, the 3700X was objectively limiting my framerates. It's not a value judgment, it's just an objective fact that such CPUs are inadequate to satisfy my preferences, and those of many other PC gamers. If you have different preferences, that's fine, but it's not really relevant when I'm talking about my own.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  Plenty of air coolers can dissipate 180W. For example, almost all graphics cards come with air coolers that are capable of dissipating their full TDP, which is often much higher than 180W. Something like this: Noctua NH-D15 chromax.Black, Dual-Tower CPU Cooler (140mm, Black) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Y87YHRH/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_VJ4VH12VM3YT14T4MEHB?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Y87YHRH/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fa... Would be able to dissipate 180W probably without even throttling up the fans that much.
  - ben-schaaf 5y ago
    A NH-U 14S is able to cool a (overclocked) 3990X at 450W reported. https://youtu.be/3GqqQQxdtUM https://youtu.be/3GqqQQxdtUM
  - cyber_kinetist 5y ago
    Wow, guess I’ve underestimated the glorious power of Noctua.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      Not just Noctua! Heat pipes are an amazing technology and there are a bunch of companies that have made really exciting thermal management products with them.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    > Would be able to dissipate 180W probably without even throttling up the fans that much. That's very likely. I have an NH-D14 with only the center 140 mm fan installed on an i7-3930k overclocked to 4.3 GHz, and it barely ramps up the fan. The loudest fan in my computer is the PSU (an old 600 or 650 W Seasonic). It runs in a "silence-oriented" Define R3 case with closed door. Intel announces 135 W TDP for that CPU. Under load, OCCT says 160 W.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      Ahaha yeah I have a Define S case. Unfortunately my current Noctua NH-U9S is not up to the task posed by the new processor, as my temps are now in the high 80s/low 90s while doing CPU-intensive gaming. So I've ordered a U14S which should be nice.
Negitivefrags 5y ago
There are rumours going around that the GeForce 4090 is going to have a max TDP of 650W. It seems insane but if true then consider that the combination of CPU and GPU is going to be 840W, and that is before the rest of the system is taken into account. At some point we are going to need to start worrying about installing dedicated venting for computers to the outside of the house. At some point you need to start integrating desktop computers into your HVAC designs. At some point you need to start having dedicated electric circuits installed like for your oven. My current computer (5950X with 3080) was already hot enough when gaming that I found it physically uncomfortable to have it under my desk and had to move it out from under there. My legs were burning up.
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  At some point we need to realize that wasting so much electricity for gaming isn't reasonable.
  - majou 5y ago
    How do you feel about cinema?
    - jmnicolas 5y ago
      What do you mean?
  - Arrath 5y ago
    Steam's hardware survey points to the majority of people staying well away from this cutting edge hardware.
- Jaygles 5y ago
  Undervolting the 3080 can help a lot with thermals and sacrifices minimal performance up to a point. I undervolted my 3090 and it improved thermals by like 5-10c depending on the workload which lowered the fan noise and as a bonus lowered the coil whine. I don't have numbers on the power draw though but it should be a significant difference
ramshorst 5y ago
Murdered by words.
monocasa 5y ago
It's really concerning for Intel. Their high margin parts are in the data center space, which is extremely sensitive to perf/watt. If they're getting perf by throwing extra watts at the problem, are the data center parts going to be competitive? If not, it doesn't bode well for Intel, as that gravy train money is part of what let's them spend a stupid amount on R&D. They could starve themselves out of the investment money they need in an increasingly competitive market.
- ant6n 5y ago
  Well they want to already go to the next node in H2/22, "intel 4", so hopefully performance/watt will improve then: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16823/intel-accelerated-offensive-process-roadmap-updates-to-10nm-7nm-4nm-3nm-20a-18a-packaging-foundry-emib-foveros https://www.anandtech.com/show/16823/intel-accelerated-offen...
  - monocasa 5y ago
    TSMC is set to have full production of N3 by then too, and they have actually been meeting their public statements about process timelines. Intel unfortunately has a increasingly uphill battle.
  - tehbeard 5y ago
    Can intel make it to the next node though.... They were stuck at 14nm for a heck of a long time, and I don't know if that was a one off, or something systemic.
vondur 5y ago
Ha, my i9 7900x can go beyond that doing video encoding. Bit I suppose it’s a HEDT part I suppose.
AdrianB1 5y ago
My setup has a PSU of just 550W and a max power draw less than 200W (around 80W in regular office apps) while allowing me to play any title at the native resolution of the monitor. It is great to have the best eye candy in 4k, but is it worth the price in $$$ and climate warming?

jpalomaki 5y ago

Maybe we should start looking at placing the computer away from the gamer. There seems to be for example optical TB3 cables, maybe something like this could be part of the solution. https://www.macrumors.com/2020/03/26/optical-thunderbolt-3-cables/amp/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/03/26/optical-thunderbolt-3-c...

cyber_kinetist 5y ago

I don't think most consumers would really care about power consumption at full load. From looking at some benchmarks, Intel seems to have okay thermals for gaming or light productivity tasks (thanks to the P-E core split). If you're doing any sort of rendering or number-crunching you're in trouble (unless you have a liquid cooler, which to be honest really sucks), but most people aren't that kind of person.

tehbeard 5y ago
> Intel seems to have okay thermals for gaming or light productivity tasks That's not what you buy an i7 for though, is it? An i7 is typically for "I have work to do when not gaming" or content creators starting out, where as an i5 is more the category for gaming and light productivity / "the family pc". Getting an i7 exclusively for gaming seems more for bragging rights on "fastest CPU".
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  Depends on the type of game. There was a period of time in the 2010s where CPUs were rarely the bottleneck in gaming. But with the advent of better graphics techniques and more powerful graphics cards, along with more ambitious scenes and simulations, there are many cases today where a strong CPU is required for gaming. A recent example is Battlefield 2042. When I first got the game I had an AMD 3700X, which is no slouch of a CPU. But it could only drive the game at about 70fps, no matter the resolution. After an upgrade to a 5900X, I can run the game at 110-120fps. The strongest i5s would likely struggle to hit a stable 60fps on this game.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    So what you're saying really is that the 3700X had absolutely no issues whatsoever running that game. Yes it's nicer to play in 120fps, but it's not like you couldn't play the game because of the CPU. I know someone who had to upgrade from an older 4-core i7 to a modern CPU because Horizon 5 was actually stuttering. But the CPU "limiting" you when you're comfortably above 60fps, and you aren't playing competitive eSports, is not really a limit, just like how my car accelerating really poorly past 150mph is not really a limit in any real sense of the word.
    - satvikpendem 5y ago
      I mean, that's your personal opinion on >60 FPS gaming, it's not universally shared. I for one enjoy even single player games at the highest FPS I can get, which is why I have a 1080p 240 hz monitor. If the parent likes their games higher than 60 FPS then to them their 3700x really was a limiter in their enjoyment, something which the 5900x would not be for them.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      > So what you're saying really is that the 3700X had absolutely no issues whatsoever running that game. Perhaps to specifications that would satisfy someone else. My requirements are ~120fps and 4k. For those requirements, no existing i5 would cut muster. > But the CPU "limiting" you when you're comfortably above 60fps I never used the word "limiting" in my comment. Not sure what you're quoting from. That being said, the 3700X was objectively limiting my framerates. It's not a value judgment, it's just an objective fact that such CPUs are inadequate to satisfy my preferences, and those of many other PC gamers. If you have different preferences, that's fine, but it's not really relevant when I'm talking about my own.
asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
Plenty of air coolers can dissipate 180W. For example, almost all graphics cards come with air coolers that are capable of dissipating their full TDP, which is often much higher than 180W. Something like this: Noctua NH-D15 chromax.Black, Dual-Tower CPU Cooler (140mm, Black) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Y87YHRH/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_VJ4VH12VM3YT14T4MEHB?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Y87YHRH/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fa... Would be able to dissipate 180W probably without even throttling up the fans that much.
- ben-schaaf 5y ago
  A NH-U 14S is able to cool a (overclocked) 3990X at 450W reported. https://youtu.be/3GqqQQxdtUM https://youtu.be/3GqqQQxdtUM
- cyber_kinetist 5y ago
  Wow, guess I’ve underestimated the glorious power of Noctua.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    Not just Noctua! Heat pipes are an amazing technology and there are a bunch of companies that have made really exciting thermal management products with them.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  > Would be able to dissipate 180W probably without even throttling up the fans that much. That's very likely. I have an NH-D14 with only the center 140 mm fan installed on an i7-3930k overclocked to 4.3 GHz, and it barely ramps up the fan. The loudest fan in my computer is the PSU (an old 600 or 650 W Seasonic). It runs in a "silence-oriented" Define R3 case with closed door. Intel announces 135 W TDP for that CPU. Under load, OCCT says 160 W.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    Ahaha yeah I have a Define S case. Unfortunately my current Noctua NH-U9S is not up to the task posed by the new processor, as my temps are now in the high 80s/low 90s while doing CPU-intensive gaming. So I've ordered a U14S which should be nice.

Negitivefrags 5y ago

There are rumours going around that the GeForce 4090 is going to have a max TDP of 650W. It seems insane but if true then consider that the combination of CPU and GPU is going to be 840W, and that is before the rest of the system is taken into account. At some point we are going to need to start worrying about installing dedicated venting for computers to the outside of the house. At some point you need to start integrating desktop computers into your HVAC designs. At some point you need to start having dedicated electric circuits installed like for your oven. My current computer (5950X with 3080) was already hot enough when gaming that I found it physically uncomfortable to have it under my desk and had to move it out from under there. My legs were burning up.

jmnicolas 5y ago
At some point we need to realize that wasting so much electricity for gaming isn't reasonable.
- majou 5y ago
  How do you feel about cinema?
  - jmnicolas 5y ago
    What do you mean?
- Arrath 5y ago
  Steam's hardware survey points to the majority of people staying well away from this cutting edge hardware.
Jaygles 5y ago
Undervolting the 3080 can help a lot with thermals and sacrifices minimal performance up to a point. I undervolted my 3090 and it improved thermals by like 5-10c depending on the workload which lowered the fan noise and as a bonus lowered the coil whine. I don't have numbers on the power draw though but it should be a significant difference

ramshorst 5y ago

Murdered by words.

monocasa 5y ago

It's really concerning for Intel. Their high margin parts are in the data center space, which is extremely sensitive to perf/watt. If they're getting perf by throwing extra watts at the problem, are the data center parts going to be competitive? If not, it doesn't bode well for Intel, as that gravy train money is part of what let's them spend a stupid amount on R&D. They could starve themselves out of the investment money they need in an increasingly competitive market.

ant6n 5y ago
Well they want to already go to the next node in H2/22, "intel 4", so hopefully performance/watt will improve then: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16823/intel-accelerated-offensive-process-roadmap-updates-to-10nm-7nm-4nm-3nm-20a-18a-packaging-foundry-emib-foveros https://www.anandtech.com/show/16823/intel-accelerated-offen...
- monocasa 5y ago
  TSMC is set to have full production of N3 by then too, and they have actually been meeting their public statements about process timelines. Intel unfortunately has a increasingly uphill battle.
- tehbeard 5y ago
  Can intel make it to the next node though.... They were stuck at 14nm for a heck of a long time, and I don't know if that was a one off, or something systemic.

vondur 5y ago

Ha, my i9 7900x can go beyond that doing video encoding. Bit I suppose it’s a HEDT part I suppose.

AdrianB1 5y ago

My setup has a PSU of just 550W and a max power draw less than 200W (around 80W in regular office apps) while allowing me to play any title at the native resolution of the monitor. It is great to have the best eye candy in 4k, but is it worth the price in $$$ and climate warming?