4 ms·

Not being killed in a car accident and not losing your car should compensate for any economic damage. Ranchers have -one- job, and is to watch and care for thei

Not being killed in a car accident and not losing your car should compensate for any economic damage. Ranchers have -one- job, and is to watch and care for their cattle. If they do it well they earn money. If not, they lose money, exactly as any other. Paying them a lot of public money for not doing their job well, would be like Apple having a bad year an asking Microsoft to cover for their loses. Ranchers are private companies.

progre 5y ago
Devils advocate: the ranchers did their job a century ago when they exerminated the wolves. They are now again asked to accept wolves near their cattle, but this time they can't shoot at them. To make this a fair deal for them we should compensate them for any cattle lost to wolves.
- pvaldes 5y ago
  Times change. What was seen as "correct" a thousand years ago, may be unacceptable with the technology and knowledge of today. We have some terrific new tools in nature management that weren't available at that time. After the new data coming day, after day, after day... it seems that people commit a few really suicidal moves a century ago. We still are trying to fix the industrial revolution effects. Paying some people a bribe with money from other people, so they agree to respect the laws... it never ends well. Is blackmail. The concept is stupid and a magnet for troubles.
  - progre 5y ago
    Bribe and blackmail, quite harsh words I would say. The government is essetially making use of the ranchers land to the general good of the overall ecosystem by (re)introducing wolves. Fair compensation for lost income is not a bribe.
    - pvaldes 5y ago
      If we remove Russia (that is huge and a special case), Spain is the European country with a highest wolf population. We have much more wolves than countries like Norway or Sweden. The Spanish government pays around 1.5 million euro each year to farmers for covering damages With sexy results. Lets see some curious discoveries in the biology of Spanish wolves: 1) Wolves start eating its preys by the most delicious part of the cattle: the livestock ear tag. A plastic piece that grants that the animal has been legally breed and registered, (and is often missing in the corpses). Having in mind that tag remains don't appear in the wolf scats, It seems that wolves love to collect them for the cubs. 2) Some cows were killed by wolves three times in three different places. The cow remains teleport mysteriously each time to another location. 3) Some farmers act as black holes for cattle. There is a strong suspicion that their entire business model consist into buying cheap foals and decrepit old goats in another province, let them alone and unprotected in the national park and wait for the corpse to be found. Some of this professionals of producing meat haven't sold a single animal or put a single sausage in the market... in decades. 4) It is suspected that scabies killing the endangered Pyrenean Chamois in the national park was introduced with those diseased goats. 5) Statistics about cattle dying by natural causes drop when government start paying wolf damages. Suddenly there is not more cows dying after giving birth, or from old age, or falling from a cliff. Is a well known secret that when you have an animal that needs an expensive veterinary procedure, borrowing a mastiff from a friend will fix the problem... and then you cry wolf, of course. 6) After introducing saliva analysis in Pyrenees looking for wolf DNA in the attacked cattle, the number of wolf attacks dropped from 100 to 7 in the next year. The analysis found that shepherd dogs owned by farmers were the real culprits in practically all attacks. Shepherd dogs had being videotaped feasting on cows and sheep. They respect its own herd, but will attack other herds. Everybody knows this. 7) Some farmers manage somehow to lost 600 sheep year after year without a trace, by the attack of magical wolves driving a van. We pay them up to 24.000 euro/year with tax money so they can be happy again. But they aren't, and ask for more. And well, "You know how flammable is the forest, do you?, Everything could start burning some of those days if you don't allow us to put cattle here..."
      - progre 5y ago
        Bribe and blackmail seem a little more reasonable in that context. However, it seems that you are talking about free ranging goats in the actual national park. In that case I think no compensation should be paid since the rancher is already making use of a public good. Then the ranger should assume the risk by himself. And of course, claims of wolf attacks outside of those national lands should be supported by physical evidence. DNA testing is quite cheap, it sounds that Spain i simply doing the compensation payouts wrong.
- pomian 5y ago
  They do this in Europe in many countries. For example: farmers are paid for damage to crops by boars. money is collected by hunting organizations to reimburse the farmers. Depending on the individual system, the boar meat is sold in government or private butcher shops.
the-dude 5y ago
MS did invest in Apple when they were at rock bottom.

progre 5y ago

Devils advocate: the ranchers did their job a century ago when they exerminated the wolves. They are now again asked to accept wolves near their cattle, but this time they can't shoot at them. To make this a fair deal for them we should compensate them for any cattle lost to wolves.

pvaldes 5y ago
Times change. What was seen as "correct" a thousand years ago, may be unacceptable with the technology and knowledge of today. We have some terrific new tools in nature management that weren't available at that time. After the new data coming day, after day, after day... it seems that people commit a few really suicidal moves a century ago. We still are trying to fix the industrial revolution effects. Paying some people a bribe with money from other people, so they agree to respect the laws... it never ends well. Is blackmail. The concept is stupid and a magnet for troubles.
- progre 5y ago
  Bribe and blackmail, quite harsh words I would say. The government is essetially making use of the ranchers land to the general good of the overall ecosystem by (re)introducing wolves. Fair compensation for lost income is not a bribe.
  - pvaldes 5y ago
    If we remove Russia (that is huge and a special case), Spain is the European country with a highest wolf population. We have much more wolves than countries like Norway or Sweden. The Spanish government pays around 1.5 million euro each year to farmers for covering damages With sexy results. Lets see some curious discoveries in the biology of Spanish wolves: 1) Wolves start eating its preys by the most delicious part of the cattle: the livestock ear tag. A plastic piece that grants that the animal has been legally breed and registered, (and is often missing in the corpses). Having in mind that tag remains don't appear in the wolf scats, It seems that wolves love to collect them for the cubs. 2) Some cows were killed by wolves three times in three different places. The cow remains teleport mysteriously each time to another location. 3) Some farmers act as black holes for cattle. There is a strong suspicion that their entire business model consist into buying cheap foals and decrepit old goats in another province, let them alone and unprotected in the national park and wait for the corpse to be found. Some of this professionals of producing meat haven't sold a single animal or put a single sausage in the market... in decades. 4) It is suspected that scabies killing the endangered Pyrenean Chamois in the national park was introduced with those diseased goats. 5) Statistics about cattle dying by natural causes drop when government start paying wolf damages. Suddenly there is not more cows dying after giving birth, or from old age, or falling from a cliff. Is a well known secret that when you have an animal that needs an expensive veterinary procedure, borrowing a mastiff from a friend will fix the problem... and then you cry wolf, of course. 6) After introducing saliva analysis in Pyrenees looking for wolf DNA in the attacked cattle, the number of wolf attacks dropped from 100 to 7 in the next year. The analysis found that shepherd dogs owned by farmers were the real culprits in practically all attacks. Shepherd dogs had being videotaped feasting on cows and sheep. They respect its own herd, but will attack other herds. Everybody knows this. 7) Some farmers manage somehow to lost 600 sheep year after year without a trace, by the attack of magical wolves driving a van. We pay them up to 24.000 euro/year with tax money so they can be happy again. But they aren't, and ask for more. And well, "You know how flammable is the forest, do you?, Everything could start burning some of those days if you don't allow us to put cattle here..."
    - progre 5y ago
      Bribe and blackmail seem a little more reasonable in that context. However, it seems that you are talking about free ranging goats in the actual national park. In that case I think no compensation should be paid since the rancher is already making use of a public good. Then the ranger should assume the risk by himself. And of course, claims of wolf attacks outside of those national lands should be supported by physical evidence. DNA testing is quite cheap, it sounds that Spain i simply doing the compensation payouts wrong.
pomian 5y ago
They do this in Europe in many countries. For example: farmers are paid for damage to crops by boars. money is collected by hunting organizations to reimburse the farmers. Depending on the individual system, the boar meat is sold in government or private butcher shops.

the-dude 5y ago

MS did invest in Apple when they were at rock bottom.